Sharon Jones 0:03 Just give it a go, just literally try it. There's there's nothing wrong with failing, you learn from that. You know sort of fail more, I think. Paul Thomas 0:11 Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top, our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul Thomas. Zoe Amar 0:18 And I'm Zoe Amar. On today's episode, we're sharing our conversation with Sharon Jones, Head of Digital Innovation at The King's Fund. Sharon has worked as an editor and producer in organisations such as MTV, Sky, and among others the BBC. Paul Thomas 0:36 The BBC ay Zoe...it's been a quite quiet weekend for them, hasn't it? Zoe Amar 0:39 Uh yeah, uh quite quiet, I suppose it depends who you speak to. But obviously, they have been all over the press. I mean, most of our listeners will have seen the Gary Lineker story. And in fact, we're recording on Monday the 13th, and it was announced earlier today that he's returning to the BBC after being suspended from Match of the Day. Most people know that was due to him tweeting, criticising the language used by ministers, when discussing the government's asylum policy. So you and I are both big advocates for use of social media by leaders in and around organisations. So Paul, what did you think of this story? Paul Thomas 1:21 Just- just can't believe we're still talking about this. Yeah. All these years later, I was just sort of going through a few books earlier on and looking at The Cluetrain Manifesto came out in 2000s. That's 23 years ago. A book we know and love, you know Euan Semple 's, 'Organisations Don't Tweet, People Do' came out in 2012. So we're quite far down the line, and yet we're still having this conversation about guidelines and what people can and can't say within and without organisations and things. So it was a little bit depressing to find ourselves back here. But- but a massive, massive story, you know, and a real sort of sense of the BBC struggling obviously with its decision making and the way it manages its- its own policies against you know one of their biggest stars in Gary Lineker, who, it's not unusual behaviour for him to talk out on subjects that he's passionate about. He does it all the time. And I think I'm right in saying that he's had some sort of shots fired across the bow in- in past times, where he said something that has been close to the bone, but this time, because of government pressure, allegedly, it seems that he's been forced out of his- out of his role, hosting Match of the Day, which obviously, you know, other listeners to this podcast will realise is a thing that's quite close and dear to my heart as a football fan, who was faced with about 35 minutes in total football highlights with no commentators- no- no commentators, no pundits, no presenters, which was completely counter to the experience, because guess what, Match of the Day is delivered by a team, and the team lost its captain, and they weren't happy about it. Zoe Amar 3:16 Exactly. It makes you think how this kind of content is so much driven by personalities, and indeed a lot of other content is. I think this story is also a bit of a reminder to organisations that they need to think about what is workable and proportionate, realistic to put on their social media guidelines. Because if you take the wrong tone, or you try to be a bit too, all encompassing or the guidelines are very widely drafted, and then people push back against it, quite reasonably, then your guidelines won't have credibility. Paul Thomas 3:56 Yeah, no, I think you're right. And I think what we've- we've heard today is that you know, Gary Lineker is reinstated whilst they review the guidelines. Be interested to know who's gonna go in and do that review of their social media guidelines. Until then, he's going to apparently toe the line, but he was straight onto Twitter again, to sort of reiterate his position saying that, you know, although it's been a hard couple of days, it's nothing compared to the hardships faced by people seeking asylum on the shores. So yeah, he's- he's maybe not going to be critical of the policy itself, but he's certainly going to carry on with with giving his opinion. And I think it is tough with organisations. I was just thinking about the first social media policy I wrote, and I was asked to sort of include a clause around political opinions and political views. And I think that was- that was probably okay when we first wrote the guidelines, probably back in 2010, 2012, it was probably just about okay. But we had to review those on a regular basis. And I don't think it's good enough to review them every couple of years with the speed that social media moves at. And we had to sort of address that, because we were finding that people that were in positions of leadership within the organisation I worked for were still talking about political opinions, and it's really hard to stop them from- from doing that. So yeah, I think it'd be an interesting few weeks for the BBC as they sort of navigate this, and hopefully they can come out with something that's a bit more tailored to the type of people that they have working for them as an organisation. Zoe Amar 5:35 Absolutely. I mean, it is a big question isn't it, in fact two big questions, this one about: where does social justice end and politics begin? Because one of the things I think we both saw in the BBC social media guidelines is that they're trying to bide people towards not getting involved in campaigns. If not, I think there's even a line in those guidelines saying, like 'don't get involved in virtue signalling'. I mean, what does that even mean? Does that mean you can't talk about '[black] lives matter', which is obviously a hugely important thing? And then also, I think that speaks to how the nature of power has shifted between organisation and employee, which has been a big theme of what we've talked about on this podcast. And if you put things into your social media guidelines that are not reasonable to ask for, because after all, as we both know, Gary Lineker is a football pundit, rather than a news journalist, then it's more likely that people will ignore them, flout them, push against them, however you want to look at it. And that means that those guidelines don't have value- value for certain people. So I think it's really important to bear that in mind, what's going to work, what's going to be proportionate? Paul Thomas 6:52 Yeah. And I think the other thing we at this podcast is, we say it's about digital leadership and change and we sort of mused at the beginning of this season, actually, we talked about how that might have shifted for us. It's more about leadership than anything else. And you start to look at well, who's shown real leadership in this whole story. And as I said, you know, Gary Lineker. It was his team, it was the people he works with that immediately jumped in behind him and supported him through this, so as a sort of a strong leader- leadership figure, there are also calls across social media for him to run for absolutely everything from Prime Minister to- to god knows what else. I mean, it's- it's Gary Lineker, and a strong display of leadership from him that BBC could- could do very well to learn from. Zoe Amar 7:48 Exactly. I think that's the whole point, isn't it, that he's- he's really acted in line with his values. And any organisation who is now frantically scrambling to review their social media guidelines, I think what you have to scenario plan for is that if you do have to put some quite strict stuff in there that people can and can't say, you have to be prepared for a situation where an individual or perhaps a group of people will push back. And they'll say, 'No, we're not doing that, because it's important we speak out on that' and had the BBC not climbed down, this could have led to some kind of strike action, couldn't it? And could we see the equivalent of that happening in an organisation and people do resign from things in- in principle or refuse to do things in principle and that is equally political to social media as well, isn't it? Paul Thomas 8:42 Yeah, it totally totally. The other thing that it brought to light was- was most amused by the the term being coined 'emergency podcast', because I think you shared the link to the podcast that the team that, it was Alastair Campbell, wasn't it, put the emergency podcast together, The Rest of Politics- The Rest is Politics podcast emergency episode: Gary Lineker, BBC in crisis and small boats. Which is funny again, because as we both discussed, The Rest is Politics is actually published through Goalhanger [Podcasts] production company. Which again, you know, just undermines how very silly this all got over the weekend. Zoe Amar 9:25 Why is this an emergency podcast, Paul? We need a nice, audio clip of an ambulance rushing by. Paul Thomas 9:34 Well, it did make me laugh about the word emergency in front of words that just aren't emergencies at all. So I think the whole thing just made me want to go for an emergency lie down, because it was all a bit- all a bit much, but no, I'm pleased that again, as a football fan, I'm pleased that I won't have to sit through commentary-less football highlights again next weekend. I think all eyes and ears will be very much on that opening line from Gary Lineker, when he rocks up on Match of the Day on Saturday night. He's usually very, very, very good at those- those first one liners when he introduces his programme, so I'm looking forward to what he's going to say next week. I'm sure it won't be ignored. Zoe Amar 10:18 But whatever he says he'll be delivering it with a twinkle in his eye and a beautifully ironed shirt. Paul Thomas 10:28 Yes, for listeners I did. We did have exchanged messages over the weekend where I said well, 'I don't really watch Match of the Day for the presenters, but I watch it for the football', and Zoe replied, 'I watch it for the fashion'. Which, you know, with- with some of some of Micah Richards, outfits that he wears on Match of the Day and on the TV, I am in full agreement with. There is a fashion show on Match of the Day and on Football TV every weekend. Anyway, now for our interview with Sharon Jones of The Kings Fund. Zoe Amar 11:00 We are very excited to welcome Sharon Jones to the podcast today. Sharon's varied and impactful career has encompassed the public, private, and not for profit sectors. With TV production in her sights, her career began at MTV, where she developed an eye for storytelling, leading to a stint in children's TV, working for a production who were commissioned by the BBC. Following this she spent the next few years using her keen journalistic skills as senior editor and producer for a range of websites including AOL. From their, her digital knowledge led to working in digital production for BBC Radio 1 and Sky TV Guide, where she interviewed the great and the goods, but also worked across the Sky Arts and Sky Atlantic websites. Realising the vast set of skills she had gathered in the commercial sector could greatly benefit the nonprofit sector, she followed her heart and became Head of Digital for the UK's largest children's reading charity, Book Trust. There, she transformed their digital presence, relaunching their website, content, and social media strategies, developing and executing their biggest campaigns, all while training and upskilling staff. She currently works for the health and care think tank, The King's Fund as their Head of Digital Innovation, where she is leading on the fund's digital vision by moving the organisation forward with audiences and with digital at its heart. Sharon, welcome to Starts at the Top. Sharon Jones 12:35 Well I thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Zoe Amar 12:38 We are so happy to have you here today. And we are especially interested to hear about your journey. Because going through your bio, you've done so many interesting things working with everyone from AOL, to BBC, to Sky. Can you take us through that journey and how it develops? Sharon Jones 13:00 Yeah, sure, absolutely. It's definitely- it's definitely varied. And obviously, I've crossed over a lot of different sectors. But I think what for me has been the real kind of core of them all have been audiences. And they've all been really focused on their audience and really passionate about serving the people that they're trying to reach and trying to find new audiences. And I think, mixed into that with like journalism and storytelling, I've just found a kind of thread that's gone through all of those different roles, even though they sound really, really different, they've always- I've always been drawn to like, this creative element. But equally, you know, it's got a purpose in terms of trying to serve an audience. So that to me, has been like the biggest kind of thread, although it seems very kind of here, there, and everywhere. Yeah, that's kind of been the biggest thing. Zoe Amar 13:48 That's really interesting. And do you feel that journalism experience has been quite helpful for where you are now, in terms of digital? Sharon Jones 13:58 Definitely, I think, even in the role that I'm in now, when you want to piece together, you know, a strategy, or something really tangible, like an animation or a podcast, they all still need a story to tell, internally and externally, to an audience. And I think having that kind of writing background has really stood me in good stead for all the jobs that I've done. Obviously, there's an element of writing in all of them, whether you're writing a kind of paper, or you're writing a script, or you're, you know, writing some kind of blurb, there's always an element of that, which I always enjoy. But it's just kind of using digital now, and using the storytelling techniques around digital that have really enhanced all of those roles and have been all the way through every single, pretty much every single job I've done, apart from the early days where I wasn't fully working in digital, I was working in TV. However, working in TV is still all about storytelling, it's still about taking the audience, you know the person who's watching on a journey. It's just in a different way from digital. Zoe Amar 14:58 And of those many and varied experiences, are there some of them which have really informed the way that you lead now? Sharon Jones 15:07 Yeah, I think one of them that really stands out, was working at Radio 1. And the reason that was is because it's a real period of my life, I was quite young, I didn't have children. So you know, you could really throw yourself into it. But the reason that one stands out is the leadership. I'd never kind of seen people who lead in the way that they did there. And one person in particular, she was really inspiring, she was a woman, she was a black woman, she was a really senior exec. And- but she was kind of humble. She knew her staff. So you know, she had authority. And this mixture of that, in one person was really, really inspiring, you know, she made good decisions. But she was also just a human, she just you know she made mistakes. She wasn't kind of, you know, so up on this pedestal, that you couldn't reach her. She was really approachable, and she was really accessible. And when you're in sort of a junior member of staff, and you want to speak to somebody like that, you could, you know, they could be really scary when they're like, at the top of the tree, so to speak. But she wasn't, and I found, like her leadership and some of the other members at the top there really inspiring, and actually just sort of really down to earth in a way that I wouldn't have expected, when I'd sort of joined such a kind of well known, you know, organisation. Zoe Amar 16:24 That's really exciting. It sounds like that woman, the experience of working with her really stayed with you. Sharon Jones 16:30 Definitely. And I think it's something like, in the back of my mind, I always sort of refer back to her in some way. Maybe not kind of explicitly, but thinking, 'oh yeah, what was it about her that made her such a good leader?' You know, she's not the only person I've encountered in my career, who really inspired me, there's other people as well, she stands out, but there's other people, like when I worked at Book Trust, I had a really supportive boss. And she also kind of stood out in a completely different way, in a more in a way about having good ideas and executing those ideas, and not being kind of your kind of stiff charity boss. You know, she just had a sparkle about her. I think that's more like personality, rather than, let's say leadership, but it's good to see somebody in that role who could just be themselves. And that's something that stood out for me as well. Paul Thomas 17:19 It's funny, isn't it, when you think back over different managers and leaders that you've experienced over your career, and whether you got on with them or not, there's usually something that you can take away. There's the infinite times that I start to quote old line managers, regardless kind of how I felt about them. And one in particular, I won't, you know, won't name names, but day to day could be a real pain in the backside. But some of the things that they shared with us or some of the ideas, I still use today. And I can't tell you any of them, because people might be listening and and say, 'Oh, I know who that was', but, you know, it's just those little snippets, those little tidbits of stuff that you take forward with you, and yeah. That certainly- certainly in my lifetime- in my work lifetime, there have been things that stood out. One boss in particular, who has just- just changed careers to become a stand up comedian, which is unbelievable. Sharon Jones 18:21 Amazing. Paul Thomas 18:22 Completely amazing, completely amazing. I need to go and have coffee with her to find out where that's where that's headed. Sharon Jones 18:27 Wow, that's quite a career change. Quite an inspiring in another way, isn't it? It's just like, giving it a go, and having the courage to try something completely new. I think that's always something to admire, as a quality in leaders, and not to be kind of scared to make mistakes, to have a vulnerability to just show their human side. And I find I'm drawn to leaders who are like that, rather than a sort of command and control type leaders, which you know seems quite obvious really, but yeah. You remember your good ones, and you remember the ones that aren't so good. and even from those people I've had in the past, you always learn like, that's how not to do leadership, or that's not how I want to do it Zoe Amar 19:07 Incredibly formative relationship, isn't it, because you spend so much time with your boss, even in this age of remote working, hybrid working, and they are going to influence you in some way, whether for better or for worse, and their actions are going to stay with you on it, because they impact you so directly. Sharon Jones 19:26 Absoloutely, Snd their but you know- their actions and their behaviours and what they say and how they present themselves, not necessarily, you know, the clothes they wear, but just the kind of that outward facing facet of themselves is really key. And I think that has really helped me it doesn't mean I don't have my own style. It just means it's kind of made me think yeah, 'what's been good about that person that I think would lend itself well, in the roles that I've had,' and you know, it's taken me into spaces that I think yeah, it's worked. Zoe Amar 19:57 Exciting. So I guess big thing that's come out of your career so far, feels like it's about adaptability, as well as having those values and those kind of golden threads of various interests that run through everything. And how has that led you to where you are now? Sharon Jones 20:14 I think I've always kind of got to the point where I think if I've done something to the point that I'm not learning, or I feel like I need to try and change, I'll take that leap. And that's probably why my career it's quite, you know, I've done lots of different things. And it's about courage. And I'm always trying to push myself more, to do things that take me out of my comfort zone, or something I haven't tried before. And some of these roles have lent themselves to that. So I think that I, in terms of where I am now, you know, I don't have a healthcare background, but I have a really strong digital background. And I'm keen on giving people what they want in terms of digital experiences. And that's why it can cross many sectors because it's not about necessarily having that specialist healthcare knowledge or knowledge about children's literature or- or knowledge about, you know, entertainment, it's about giving people what they want, the way they want it in a timely fashion, and in the spaces that they inhabit, rather than forcing it on them and hoping that they'll take up, pick it up. Paul Thomas 21:25 This podcast is nothing but about how digital crosses over sectors and disciplines and all sorts of different things. And I think that's really true, isn't it, we can find ourselves quite pigeon holed in- in spaces, you know, for- for example, it's no- no coincidence that two of my clients are accountancy firms where I worked for 10 years within an accountancy firm. And I tried to sort of go off and work with other organisations, working with a health charity at the moment and other other places where you can apply the same level of thinking but to a completely- completely different discipline. So that variety has always been important to me. Sharon Jones 22:06 Definitely. Zoe Amar 22:07 Paul is the fun side of accounting, just to reassure you Sharon. Paul Thomas 22:10 [Laughs] Yeah, there was this- there was this line wasn't there, I can't remember, I need to find out where this came from, but there was I think it was an article, I think it was a Forbes article, we'll have to go away and check it, but I think it was- it was headlined, 'why accountants will change the world' or 'why accountants will save the world', I think it actually was. I still haven't got to the bottom of exactly why, but they are, you know, quite important. My accountant in particular is fairly important. And, you know, I live by what they say. Sharon Jones 22:45 I definitely underestimated, I think, you know, they're- they're creative in a different way. They probably get a bit pigeonholed- Paul Thomas 22:53 Hopefully not too creative. Sharon Jones 22:56 [Laughs] Oh no, not that kind of creative. But yeah, you know, that's what underpins the vision of what we want to try and do. We need to have the funds to do that. So you need an accountant, who kind of understands what you're trying to achieve, and also finds the money for it. Paul Thomas 23:13 Exactly. Zoe Amar 23:14 So bringing it back to the present day and and The King's Fund, we'd love to hear a bit about some of the digital challenges and opportunities you're currently facing. Sharon Jones 23:24 Yeah, absolutely. So my role there is as digital innovation, sorry Head of Digital Innovation, and I think the challenges are, how we're going to make the most impact in the healthcare sector, which is just a huge challenge, because, you know, the current state of the NHS is very challenging, the external environment... But also, it's about having the digital capability, and making sure staff feel confident in what they're doing. And also producing products that really help in our services that help our wider audience. So that in a way, they're both challenges and opportunities, you know. The opportunities are kind of endless, you know, the healthcare sector is vast, there's so much good work being done, and there's so much good work to be done. But equally, you know, at The King's Fund itself, we're a small organisation, and it's about having a sort of parameters around our vision and making that happen. And looking at what we really need in terms of digital capability to, you know, realise those- those dreams, essentially. Zoe Amar 24:29 And you and I have talked about skills quite a lot and what you're doing about digital skills, can you tell people a bit more about that? Sharon Jones 24:37 Yeah, definitely. I mean, it you know, sort of came out from your, your paper your report for last year, the charity, digital skills report. You know, how people- there's still quite fear around digital and I think it's about like democratising it, making it accessible to people. They were coming through the pandemic, and you know, we're all working from home and you know, hybrid working, but there's still work to be done. And it's about making it accessible for people, making digital, you know, something that people can get on board with. It's not this scary thing that's been done to them, it's how they can help be part of this narrative of moving to a more digitally enabled culture, and not feel fearful about it, and be on board because, you know, the possibilities are endless. So in terms of skills, where we are now is like, do we know? Do we upskill staff do bring on staff who've already got a level of capability? You know, there's an element of if we want to be digitally enabled, do we just bring on every person that we bring on in all the various departments, they've all got a certain level, or are we going to invest and make sure that we bring everybody up to a particular level in order to, you know, achieve our sort of strategic goals? It's a bit of a challenge. And, you know, I really agree with that partnership working and looking at what other organisations are doing, how have they done it well? You know, knowledge share, and to sort of get the best of what is out there, but in a way that we can tangibly do it at The King's Fund? Paul Thomas 26:05 What are some of the specifics that you're finding teams within The King's Fund are asking for from you as a- as a digital expert within the organisation? Sharon Jones 26:16 Yeah, I think- I think there's a- one of the things around collaborative tools. We use quite a few collaborative tools, and it's about sort of streamlining them, knowing what are the most effective tools that work for everybody, because in certain departments, you might have a digital team, you know, they're using various things - I don't know if I'm allowed to mention them but - you know, things like Trello, and- and various platforms that they use, but that's not rolled out across the whole organisation. So is that something that we want to take up so that other departments can work using those kinds of tools, or is that something that, you know, is only for about those teams that work in that way? I think that's one of the things that we're trying to, well I'm trying to kind of look at, in the broader sense, going right, 'What is it we're trying to do? What are these tools for? How can we use them in the most effective way, without excluding teams or individuals, so that we benefit from it all?' That's what I'd say. Zoe Amar 26:16 And why do you think there's that fear factor around digital skills still? Sharon Jones 26:24 I mean there might be stuff around, you know, embarrassment. You might be embarrassed that you don't have a particular skill set within digital, or you might feel like you don't want to. You know, you're quite happy doing what you want to- you know working in the way that you've always worked. It's never caused any trouble and you want to continue working in that way. You know it's a bit of that, 'this is how we work, and this is how we're always going to work', kind of mindset. And then I find that it's about trying to bring that transformational change internally to show people what the benefits are in moving forward using digital. And that way we can really, you know, get ahead in the field that we're in. Paul Thomas 27:57 Some of the- one of the- sort of the biggest challenges I've seen, particularly with the healthcare organisation I'm working with is still that sense, and it goes back to- this goes back to accountancy, you know, the number one fear from accountants was that they would use some of these tools if they were internal or external, so we're talking about social media or sharing something internally, that they'd say something wrong, that they'd get something wrong, that they'd say something out of turn, or they would get yeah, they would, they would post something that they couldn't stand behind. And now, sort of 10, 15 years later, what we're seeing is still that sense, maybe not externally, I think people are getting a bit more used to how these social channels work, still get tripped up by them, quite often, if we're honest, but internally is that slight fear of putting their head above the parapet, and out- standing out and saying something. And sometimes it's the very reason why these tools don't get adopted in a way. So things like Yammer, things like Teams- Teams is it's fairly- people are adapting to it quite well, because it's a small group of people, usually around a specific subject. But then take that out onto something like Yammer or something where they're sharing with the wider organisation, and there is that fear of putting their head above the parapet. Sharon Jones 29:18 And I think that probably, even you know broadening that out further is around the culture. You know, if there's a culture where it's maybe around perfectionism, or maybe sort of high excellence, then people might feel even more fearful in terms of, you know, putting their neck on the line and trying something new. And if you want to have like an experimental culture, you've got to have a culture that is allowed to fail and you're allowed to make mistakes and trip up and try again. And there might be something playing into that- that kind of world, because I guess accountants, you know, they're very precise, can't really mess up with the numbers, etc, etc. And I feel like that could be probably part of that, that wider culture. So it's almost a cultural thing, in allowing people to go, 'look, I feel vulnerable enough to say like, 'I don't know how to use this, I feel a bit embarrassed. I'm not really sure. Do I even need it? What have I got to say?'' And sort of educating them, but equally giving them the confidence to just give it a go, because ultimately, we're, you know, we're all just here trying, winging it, and not necessarily knowing absolutely, you know, you can't know everything. And I think it's encouraging teams to try things, and that will kind of help embed new practices. Paul Thomas 30:29 And encouraging leaders to play in that space as well. Sharon Jones 30:31 Absoloutely. Yeah, definitely of leaders, because you know, people are watching you and you know, you want to kind of set an example, then, you know, you're modelling aren't you and so equally, you've got to kind of be brave yourself, but also be kind of humble enough to say, 'look, I might just trip up myself, but you know, whoops. It's okay. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to fail'. I think if you give that message out, that gives a more open experimental, creative environment for teams to give things a try. Zoe Amar 31:00 Where do you think organisations should be setting the bar at the moment? I mean, obviously, it's going to be different, because everyone's at different stages of digital maturity, but do you think we should be aiming higher with this stuff now? Sharon Jones 31:14 I think, high, I mean it depends what high looks like. You know, aiming high is great, but if you're already nervous about, you know, putting a post out on social media, then maybe that's just too much. I think it's like almost baby steps, but equally saying you know, 'we need to move at pace as well, otherwise we're going to be left behind', you know, and you won't be relevant. It's finding that balance, and I think that that needs to be set, you know, across the organisation. It doesn't always have to come from the top. I think there's a bit of a myth about everything has to be set from up high, actually, there's lots going on in other parts of the organisation that might be doing some really interesting things that you might not know about. It's about kind of, like I say, democratising digital, making it accessible, and collectively thinking, 'well, where do we need to get to? And how do we get there?'. Zoe Amar 31:58 And really owning that as an organisation. Sharon Jones 32:02 Absolutely. And being accountable, you know. I think sometimes it's- it's easy to kind of blame or, you know, sort of point fingers, I think, actually just sort of owning it is the as the best way of describing that. And just, and just trying, like literally just try. Zoe Amar 32:17 And not being afraid to do that, either. Yeah, it's a echoed theme that we were talking about earlier. Sorry. Go on. Sharon Jones 32:24 No, absolutely, yeah, just, you know, like, literally just you know step out, you know, a millimetre out of your comfort zone, and then, you know, go a bit further again, and go a bit further again, and that, sort of building that momentum of just giving it a go and have a look outside, you know, look out, look up. What are other people doing? Where are they doing it well? And just sort of, you know, have conversations. I don't think there's a kind of textbook answer. And this is the way, you know, chapter one, paragraph two, that's how you're going to get there. I think you've got to feel your way, and sort of be iterative about it. Zoe Amar 32:24 I love that. Feeling your way with it. There's an element of intuition isn't there as much as the measuring and the planning?...Tracking? Sharon Jones 33:07 Yeah, get out of your head, bit more into your heart, I guess. Just try it. Especially as I work at think tank, we you know, we think a lot. It's like, trying to sort of translate that into- into more doing and tangible outputs. Zoe Amar 33:21 It's making that transition from that cerebral side, I suppose of what you do, which is obviously one of The King's Fund's strengths isn't it? Sharon Jones 33:30 Absolutely, absolutely. Some amazing minds there. And, you know, that's not to be kind of dismissed in anyway. It's just sort of harnessing that thinking into, you know, reaching even wider audiences. That's the key. Zoe Amar 33:45 So speaking of progress, we've talked a few times, you and I, about inclusion, and as women of colour, how we want to see that change across the sector, what's your take on where the sector's at? Sharon Jones 34:00 I think the sector still has a way to go. Like a lot of sectors to be absolutely honest. And I think that's one of the kind of positions of privilege that I have in that I can sort of show young women of colour or people of colour that you know, you can go up the ranks a bit. It doesn't have to be- it's not impossible. It's not easy, but it's not impossible, either. And I think with the charity sector, there is still work to be done. You know, I've worked in organisations where I'm one of the few faces of colour and it's just- you just think, wow, how can we be actually- how can we serve our audiences if we're so...mono? I just can't see how it's possible. If everybody's come from a particular background, or they're a particular type, whatever that type is by the way, it could just be- it could be women. You know, how- how can we genuinely say we are reaching all these different people impactfully if you don't have that diversity in your own workforce. And I feel really strongly about that. And I think you have to look at what- what are the barriers? What- where do they begin? And to be really honest and open about that in your organisation, again it's showing that vulnerability to sort of unpick what is actually happening, and try to find a way forward and, you know, employ more diverse people. And what does that even- what does that that even look like in reality? Zoe Amar 35:29 [Have we] got enough momentum around this issue? Sharon Jones 35:32 As a sector? I think is definitely building definitely. I think, you know, you have to keep going. It's never- it's never over. There's never like an end point. You have to keep chipping away at it. And I think at the moment, I think there is quite a lot of momentum, actually, I'll be honest and say there was, but it's easy to let it slide. And just to kind of like, 'oh, yeah, that was that thing, and we're moving on', but I feel like, now is a really great opportunity to like, harness that energy that is there. And to sort of amplify it. So that, you know, you do get different faces in all these spaces, basically. Zoe Amar 36:06 It's so essential, isn't it, especially for all these massive challenges that we're all facing at the moment? Sharon Jones 36:12 Absolutely. And, you know, from big organisations, to small organisations, you know, we can all do our part. I don't think there's any excuses to not have that as, like, one of your key priorities in your strategic, you know- you know, whatever your strategy looks like, that should be definitely be in there, because how else can we actually reach the type of person you're reaching, if you're kind of- if you're excluding you know, essentially? Paul Thomas 36:36 [You could] say it's exactly that, isn't it, that you know you have to look at the audience you're trying to reach, and then reflect that within the organisation? Sharon Jones 36:43 Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And to make it easy for organisations to make it easy for people to join your organisation, like some of- you know you come across some really challenging like recruitment platforms where you think, 'well, you're not going to get a diverse workforce, if you have got a really hard platform to navigate, you know, loads of forms to fill in, or you know you have to write a set thing', that's just going to turn off people who are neurodiverse, people who English might be their second language. You know, there's so many entry points, and I think it just starts even at that level, when you- you know, you put out a job that you want people to apply for, and then they're gonna apply for it, and if it's really hard straightaway, you've just excluded a whole bunch of talent. And I think it starts, you know, even at that level. Zoe Amar 37:30 I completely agree with that. It really starts at those very early stages doesn't it. And then speaking of looking to the future, what's on your digital radar for 2023 Sharon? Sharon Jones 37:43 Well part of my role is to be sort of putting together the vision with my colleagues. So we'll, you know, I can't go into like, top top detail, but I think about working in agile fashion, and which doesn't seem very kind of groundbreaking, but I think there's something in there about teams coming together, really collaborating, and you know putting your sort of best minds in terms of different types of people, again, it's that diverse and inclusive kind of narrative, and getting digital products and experiences and services out to your audiences with all of those elements in mind. And I think that's a really, really key. So for King's Fund, that's really important to us, we want to reach different audiences, you know, healthcare sector is vast, it's also very challenging at the moment for the workforce who are involved in health and care. So what can we do to support leaders and support, you know, the workforce, in terms of the things that they need? So, you know, again, it's sort of deep diving into audiences, what do they want? What do they need? And for us to kind of deliver that. Zoe Amar 37:48 So it's bringing people back to that focus on users isn't? Sharon Jones 38:54 Absolutely, it's always, I always think it's always about people. Any kind of transformation always starts with people, more so than the tech, that comes later. But there's always you've got to get the buy in, you've got to, you know, really bring people on the journey. And you can't do that, and you can't deliver it without staff. So you need people. It always starts there. In my mind. Paul Thomas 39:16 That word, confidence, is always there, isn't it? And I think it's certainly in most of the work that I do. You start with the word confidence, because you need confident leaders to show the way, you need confident staff to be able to use the tools, and then that breeds confidence in the audiences that you're- you're trying to talk to. So yeah, that- that's always where- where we start. You're right, you know, we might call this podcast Starts at the Top, but it doesn't always start at the top. I think it starts with confidence sometimes and that can come from anywhere. Sharon Jones 39:51 Absolutely. And I always think, you know, again, like ideas can come from absolutely anywhere and they should, you know, it shouldn't just be a particular department or team has to have the pressure of coming up with a next idea. I think it's about, you know, ideas can come from across an organisation, be harnessed - the skills that they might need to bring that idea to life might have to come from a particular team. However, the sort of initial thinking can be, you know, from anywhere. And I think that's one thing when I worked at Radio 1 that really stuck with me is that, you know, ideas could come from anywhere. You know, although you have producers and presenters, if you had a germ of an idea, every year, they used to do a kind of like documentary idea. Anybody could come up with a documentary, and it didn't matter if you were work experience person, or if you worked on, you know, the receptionist or, you know, you worked in HR, you could come up with that idea, and if that idea was chosen, it would be taken forward, you'd be teamed up with the producers and presenters, and that idea would be brought to life. And I think it's about that. It's collaborative, you know, being collaborative, being open, you know, not saying that you are the only expert, and you're the only person who can do this thing, but equally, you know, sort of doing it for the greater good. Like, why are you doing this? You know, it's always equally the why as well, it's crucial, as well as having the people to bring it to life. Zoe Amar 41:10 Love that idea! I would really love to hear more charities doing that actually. Sharon Jones 41:16 Definitely! I mean, I want to kind of say introduce that in The King's Fund where it doesn't have to be a particular team. You know, yes, it's great if it comes from sort of the usual creative kind of departments, but it doesn't have to be, you know, and I think it's about just even making that change, can kind of shake things up and bring an openness to an organisation, which makes people feel like they can, you know, be themselves. They can, you know, bring themselves to work, because they think, 'well, I'm not going to be sort of shouted down, because I'm in operations, and I've come up with an idea that could be a campaign. Like, why should that be the case?' Zoe Amar 41:53 100% it really democratises that innovation process doesn't it? Sharon Jones 41:57 Yeah, definitely. We're all, we're all responsible. We're all, you know, we all work in our workplaces for a reason, we've all joined that organisation for a reason. So it's kind of our duty to kind of help take it forward to serve the people who need us most. Zoe Amar 42:11 And can we finish by you telling us one thing that you wish you'd learned earlier in your career? Sharon Jones 42:17 Oh I think it's just, to give it a go. Like, if I was, you know, when you're sort of starting out, you know you can be a bit cautious, can't you? You just think you've got to go in a bit of a straight line. And I'm kind of glad those days are over. But I think if I had just taken a bit more leap of faith here and there, yeah, that's definitely- just give it a go. Just literally try. There's- there's nothing wrong with failing, you learn from that. You know, sort of fail more, I think. Just give it a try. Definitely. I'm more like that now. Way more like that now, but I think, when you're first starting out, you're- you're too scared, because you don't know. I think if you've got that kind of confidence, that kind of grows with, you know, doing more jobs, but I think doing it, trying it, and giving it a whirl, there's no harm in that at all. Zoe Amar 43:03 Amazing what a great note to end on Sharon. Thank you. Focusing on confidence and being brave, and just trying things out. Thank you. Sharon Jones 43:11 Absolutely. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. It's been brilliant. Paul Thomas 43:14 Thank you. Yeah great sentiment to end on. Thank you. Zoe Amar 43:16 Thank you so much to Sharon for her time and sharing her wonderful insights. Paul Thomas 43:23 So this was the last episode in this current run, but we're already planning and plotting our next season. So if you have any ideas, I know we've been out on social media. And Zoe you've already got a couple of people lined up for next season. It would be great if you could share any ideas with us about the type of people you'd like to hear from. Should we go after Gary Lineker, Zoe? Zoe Amar 43:45 He might be quite busy at the moment, Paul. If he stayed off Match of the Day then he'd have a bit more spare time, but maybe we'll have to wait for the season after the next one. Paul Thomas 43:56 Yeah, we might have to. So in the meantime, we- you can find us on Twitter, we're at @startsatthetop1 and you can also email us at startsatthetop@gmail.com. Zoe Amar 44:07 And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or anywhere else you get your podcasts, you can rate and review, please do. It helps more people find out about our podcast. And we'll speak to you again next season. Paul Thomas 44:20 We'll speak to you very soon. Thank you. Bye! Zoe Amar 44:22 Bye! Transcribed by https://otter.ai