Zoe Amar 0:04 We are delighted that this episode of Starts at the Top is sponsored by Arvato CRM solutions. Arvato CRM solutions designs and delivers award winning customer service, business process outsourcing, and digital and Intelligent Automation solutions with some of the world's most respected brands, as well as innovative Charity and public sector clients. They partner with clients to help them define their customer experience and transformation strategies by implementing the right technology, people and processes to improve their customer journey while driving new efficiencies and helping them prepare for the future. To find out more about how Arvato CRM solutions could help an organisation like yours, and to receive a free no obligation chat, visit avato.co.uk forward slash Wales air ambulance. Joe Ryle 1:14 It was 100 years ago that we moved from a six day working week to a five day working week. In some respects, I think it's quite bizarre that we're still wedded to this model, given the world of workers obviously transformed since then. Paul Thomas 1:26 Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul Thomas. Zoe Amar 1:33 And I'm Zoe Amar. This week we're excited to share our conversation with Joe Ryle who is the director of the four day week campaign. This is a subject that has been even more front and centre of all of our minds since the pandemic and something you and I speak about quite often, isn't it Paul? Paul Thomas 1:50 Yeah, it's something that comes up a lot. And in conversations we've had with people about flexible working conditions and patterns and how I think, you know, the pandemic caused us all to reset the way our working weeks are set up and shape up. But this was interesting, because I think what Joe and his team are edging towards is more systemic and societal change. And it makes for a really interesting conversation. But so how do you feel about it? So I know we've talked about this before, but you're ready to make the move to a four day week or even a nine day fortnight? Zoe Amar 2:21 I would love to do that, I had an aspiration about doing this ever since I started my business 10 years ago. And I know it is something I will do. At some point. I think I'm just not organised enough to do it at the moment. How about you? Paul Thomas 2:37 Yeah, kind of similar. And I think it does come down to that organisation, doesn't it? So I was having a conversation with somebody that we both know, not so long ago. And they do a really good thing where they block out meetings every second Friday and try to take every second Friday off. So essentially a nine day fortnight. But I think it's that crucial bit that I think the first step towards doing that is no meetings. So you know, putting nothing in the calendar for that Friday. So you can actually concentrate on some of the things that you need to concentrate on. And I think discipline around that is probably key. The first thing for me, when it comes to that sort of stuff always starts with actually just not opening email. That's the one that that's the killer app. I think if you don't open email, you'll start to the day is so much more so serene. It's the the email inbox and things that have happened overnight or early in the morning that tend to throw me off on either set the day to do something else. Yeah, it's interesting. And I think Joe's insight into it's really interesting, and it'd be good to know from our listeners, how they're experimenting with giving people that flexibility back into their lives. So yeah, stay tuned for that. Other thing we were going to discuss was threads. You made the move over I see. Zoe Amar 4:02 I have moved some of my social presence over there. That's a grandiose term, basically, I've set up an account, I'm still on Twitter, obviously, you're not engaging with it as much as other people are in the same in the same sort of way. I think everyone is engaging in a much more transactional way with Twitter now, unfortunately, because that's just become the norm for that platform. But I've got quite good feeling about threads. I mean, it will be interesting to see how it develops. The big challenge with it at the moment is they just don't seem to be listening to user feedback about accessibility. And that is going to limit their capacity to scale. I mean, surely they understand that it's a real shame they've missed out on their big time. Paul Thomas 4:49 It would be nice for one of these platforms to start off on the right foot on many different levels rather than just the one so they've got the bit about, you know, a welcoming community quite right but not welcoming every one so you know, that's a big thing to fix. Zoe Amar 5:04 It shouldn't be an afterthought you shouldn't be doing and accessibility, you should be doing accessibility and... shouldn't you? You should be starting with how that would be a much better differentiator from Twitter, wouldn't it? How might we make this new platform as inclusive and democratic as possible, and then build the other functionality around it, it would probably be much easier to make decisions if you make inclusion and accessibility that the key cornerstones. Paul Thomas 5:35 I completely agree, I can completely agree. But don't forget, you know, these are these are engineers that have only worked on Facebook and Instagram. It's not like they've done this before. Brand new, a brand new venture from a team of people that should have some previous in how to set these things up right and you know, plenty of experience doing so. I've sort of quite surprised to find myself on it because I sort of I haven't mourned the death of Twitter as much as I thought I would. So when I sort of saw thread I thought oh... just as I was sort of getting out, you dragged me back in and that was essentially my first my first read, it was like, oh, here I am. But I think it's good to be there and good to sort of see how it shapes up, I guess, watch this space, see how it develops over time, you're right. There are some certain fundamentals that it needs to start getting right quite quickly, otherwise, they can find themselves their own revolt and people leaving in droves. I was interested also to see Ian Dunt too, obviously guest on this podcast, sort of claiming it as this is the place to be now. But it'd be interesting to see whether journalists and the news agenda sort of moves from Twitter over to something else, because I think Twitter is still so ingrained in that work. Zoe Amar 6:52 I'm not sure that it will move over. So I'm sure I saw a post from Ian actually not long after launch saying that, and forgive me, I hope I'm not misquoting Ian here. So please do check his feed. I'm pretty sure I saw a poster of him saying something about how news wasn't going to be as much of a priority in the algorithm. And I think he was quoting someone from the actual platform. But I could be wrong. Paul Thomas 7:20 Yeah, well, I wouldn't, it wouldn't surprise me because if one of the things I want to do with it is to make it a friendlier, more open space and putting that stuff back in straightaway. Which is what causes most people to fall out with each other and have that negative discussion is possibly a misstep that we will see. We will wait and reserve judgement for later in the next season. We'll come back to it and see whether we're still using it. And also this week, you launched the charity digital skills report. So we can just talk about that. Zoe Amar 7:54 Yeah, yeah, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Yeah, very exciting report this year. For the reason that for the first time, we asked people in a bit more depth about how they responded to the challenge of AI. So we actually ran a flash poll alongside the survey, as well as exploring some more lighter touch, emerging tech issues within the report itself, definitely seen a massive increase in interest in this area over the last year unsurprisingly. So 66%, of charities said that they're interested in making use of emerging tech, such as AI and chat GPT. So that was actually up very, very significantly from the year before, it was only 15% in 2022. So it'll be interesting to see how that develops further across the sector. And of course, cost of living the other big topical issue of the year. So 27% of charities, saying that the cost of living is a significant challenge to how they're using digital. And that's where funders listening to what charities are saying in the report about how they need more funding, more support, more guidance with digital is really, really key. So we hope that funders will listen to what charities are telling them through the mechanism of the report and respond to that. Paul Thomas 9:19 Yeah, it's having an impact, isn't it on many levels, but when it comes to ability to invest, I guess is it a mixture maybe perhaps when some cases where digital technology can be quite hard to sell into organisations and yet you add the the added benefit of or the added cost implications to that and it just becomes something that we can do that tomorrow tomorrow. Rather than getting on board with it now. The accept the the AI shift is incredible, though. Up to 60s. Did you say 66%? Zoe Amar 9:59 Yeah, I mean, it's huge. And then also, what we saw in the flash poll was, you know, 78%, saying that AI is relevant to their charity and could transform it. So that was much higher than I anticipate, actually. So that's good news. But 73% said that they didn't feel prepared to respond to the opportunities and challenges of AI. So right now in the sector, what we've got is people very much seeing that there's an opportunity here, but also not feeling prepared to respond to the readiness just isn't there yet, I really hope we'll start to see a sea change in that over the next few months, it'll be great to see the regulator sector bodies coming together and funders as well, obviously, to provide that support and guidance and convening spaces for charities to learn together about AI and how we can influence the policy in this area is hot, because that is also a vacuum right now. Paul Thomas 10:59 Yeah, yep. It's huge. It's huge. In another AI related news. We went to see the new Mission Impossible film last Friday, which is all about the rise of AI and the challenge of AI as a global concern. So you know, if Tom Cruise is worrying about it, then the rest of us need to be thinking about it. Zoe Amar 11:22 Yeah, well, he would be a great podcast guest if he fancies coming along. Paul Thomas 11:28 He needs to get in line. Zoe Amar 11:30 He needs to get in line! We do have some exciting people lined up for next season don't we and yeah, he would need to join the back of the queue. Paul Thomas 11:40 Yeah. We need to vet him before he comes on, I think and make sure he's got plenty to say, anyway, talking of somebody that's got plenty to say over to our interview with with Joe Ryle. So we have a lot of discussion on Starts at the Top about how we're all making changes to the way that we work post pandemic. And for years, it seems we've been talking about looking for a better work life balance. A recent poll showed that 58% of the British public expected a four day week to be the normal way of working by 2030 with only 22%, believing it wouldn't. The four day week campaign is leading the way on this search for balance. And we're delighted to welcome its director Joe Ryle to the podcast. Hi Joe and welcome to Starts at the Top. Joe Ryle 12:23 Hi, thanks for having me on here. Paul Thomas 12:25 You're very welcome. So can you tell us and our listeners a bit more about your background and how you got involved in campaigning for this fundamental change in the way that we're approaching the working week? Joe Ryle 12:36 Yeah. So I've been working for a long time, I guess, like most people like five days a week, sometimes, sometimes more than that. I used to work for the Labour Party and was involved in a couple of general election campaigns. And I think in those days, we were working six days seven or seven days a week on general election campaign. And I was, I was always lucky to take part in work, though, though, largely really enjoyed. But I just remember being quite struck by this kind of reality that there wasn't much time for life outside of work. And especially working in kind of high end some high level politics job like this kind of sense that my personal identity was a bit of a loss or something that was so kind of defined by work, but it's not as, like, who am I outside of this. And so I think when I was working, I didn't go down to four days, I took the loss of I did take a pay cut at that point. But I just seemed to have a suddenly so much enjoying enjoying life a lot more enjoying work a lot more, but also had a much better sense of who I was, and why I enjoy that time at work. I just felt like it was something Yeah, it just felt like the balance wasn't right, you know, like doing five out of your seven days, every single week, doing the same thing every day, it just didn't feel like the balance was right and didn't feel like life had a good balance to it. And so I was I didn't think there was something in there in terms of the wider population that that people could kind of, you know, appeal to people. And so yeah, after working for Labour Party, and after those kind of elections, cause the Labour Party did put the four day working week in their manifesto at the 2019 general election. But it didn't do so well on that election. But I felt like it was something which deserves more attention deserved more support. And so yeah, I got involved in the campaign quite soon after that election. Paul Thomas 14:25 It's great. And it's it has sort of hung around as a conversation for years and years, every employer I've ever met that sort of talks about striving for this work life balance. And I'm always conscious, I think is always the same that there's this this race every Friday to get to the end of the day and tick off the to do list, but then Monday comes around. So this balance of five days versus two days. That the creation of the weekend is a sort of a concept that's been around for a number of years, but it's obviously getting that to the point where it feels a little bit outdated. Joe Ryle 14:56 I mean yeah very outdated. I mean, yeah, it was 100 years ago that we won the weekend, it was 100 years ago that we moved from a six day working week to a five day working week, which at the time, you know, was designed for a more agricultural industrial economy. And, you know, in in some respects, I think it's quite bizarre that we're still wedded to this model, given the, you know, the world of work has obviously transformed since then. And if you look at the history, there's there was kind of a, there's an interesting chart, which shows the kind of decline in working hours since then, and working hours, gradually did reduce to around the 1980s. But since the 1980s, it almost flatlined, you know, we were almost worked on the exact same amount of hours as we were in the 1980s. When you think about all of the productivity gains we have had over the last few decades, you know, none of that has really been passed back to work sometimes have more free time, more leisure time. So we do think this is a change, which is long overdue. Paul Thomas 15:52 Zoe, I was thinking it's that age old conversation, when you're at social occasions, when you do have your two days off, you're at social occasions, and people say, so what do you do, Paul? And it's like, well, could we have a conversation about music about, you know, stuff that I enjoy outside of work, we're defined by our working roles and our professions, and that that surely needs to change. Given everything that we've been through in the past few years. And even the last decade or so. Zoe Amar 16:19 Why is that? Do we think, I mean, why do we all, now, I'm guilty of doing it myself to just define ourselves so much by what we do and how busy we are? Joe Ryle 16:30 I mean, I think it's a really fascinating discussion. Because, you know, we do have an acute problem in the UK, where we do work, some of the longest working hours in your blocks and the longest hours in the world, I think, apart from Greece, were the longest hours in Europe, while also having one of the least productive economy so that all these long working out we're doing isn't making us very productive. I do think that just that seeps in, ultimately, doesn't it? I mean, I remember going to university and then going into work, and it is that person, you know, whenever you meet someone new, that first question is kind of what do you do? And that question always seems to be around work. And you're right, it's like, there's so much more to the world and so much more to ourselves as individuals. And so it is a big, it is going to be a big task to kind of unravel that. And to start changing that culture, I think is starting to change. I think we're at the start of that beginning to change. And, you know, if you look at some of the polling, you know, four day working week is popular across the board, but it's more popular with the younger generation coming through. And I think there is that sense, from the younger generation that, you know, they don't want their lives to be defined by work in the same way as it has been for their parents generation, their grandparents generation, I think that shift is starting to change. I mean, that's quite exciting, but it is gonna take a while to shift that. Zoe Amar 17:46 Is this about having more of a focus on, well it's partly about enjoying your life, quite rightly, isn't it, but it's also about impact and meaning rather than busyness in this kind of classic sense that we've just talked about. Joe Ryle 18:02 Yeah, and some of those conversations are quite, that's quite interesting, you know, when we, because we do coaching as well, you know, we do coaching and training with companies and organisations to help them move into a four day workweek. And it's interesting that we all have been asked the question, but the very beginning isn't, what do you define as kind of success? The organisation kind of what are those metrics? What are the what's the real bits of world focus that really brings the kind of rewards for the organisation, and sometimes that can be a sense of confusion amongst kind of businesses and companies, I'm often surprised there's that almost not clear about what they're actually trying to achieve in a working where you can, I think it's yeah, it's fascinating, and it doesn't highlight the kind of culture we've had in this country for a long time. It's just kind of we work these hours, and we kind of do stuff and that time, and actually, what what we're saying is that, you know, actually, we can be more focused, we can be more strategic about what we're trying to get done at work and, and fit that into four days, and then have a you know, enjoy our lives much more outside of work. Zoe Amar 19:03 And we start learning about these concepts. So early, don't we? I mean, I vividly remember my daughter, she's 10 now, but when she was two, my husband put her down for a nap. And he was like, Oh, I can hear something upstairs, what's going on? And he went upstairs and she was sitting in my office where I'm sat right now pretending to tap on the keyboard. She was only two years old at the time, and my husband went What are you doing? And she said, I am too busy to nap, daddy. It's just rocketing how early on in life, we start to realise that our value is kind of demonstrated through this sense of, of being busy, isn't it? Joe Ryle 19:39 Yeah, exactly. And, and why? You know, I think we do have to ask the question, like, why is it seen as a badge of honour to be sort of busy all the time? Why is that something that we kind of reward? We always seem to kind of elevate someone's social status because they're busy all the time. I mean, I don't think that's really a good thing to strive on. An end it is you know, even you're right even when when we go to school for the first time, whatever it is seven or eight years old. So we're five days a week, we're on the five days a week model when it's drilled into us from the from the very start. And, and obviously, if we don't, we're talking about what we are kind of advocating for the long term, is it kind of societal economic shifts, or four day work week for everyone? Of course, you couldn't really do that overnight, you know, you can, you can't really give all of the schools a four day week unless you're giving parents a four day week too. So which is why we actually launched our manifesto this week, which is why we're saying that it does need to be coordination on this problem and of government and business leaders, trade union leaders to really think about how we can implement this across the economy. But it's going to take a long time to shift the mentality, but I do, I've been encouraged that that is starting to happen. Paul Thomas 20:43 Yeah, I was gonna ask that question about something like schools, because I know, there's work being done to try and get this into the NHS health care workers to try and increase productivity and give people a bit more of a break. But it'd be interesting to explore, I guess how that works. Are there any schools or any sort of educational institutions that are picking it up? Or at least trying to do something with it? Joe Ryle 21:08 Yeah, there's a handful of schools that moved to four and a half day a week. And because of the government regulation, there's a certain amount of hours, I think it's 32 hours that have to be delivered, despite the kind of education also, so that, that does make it trickier in the education sector, but then to actually do a true kind of for the for the staff line kids. And I think, you know, I think it's almost a separate conversation around the kind of benefits for children and kids of being in school one day less, I think, I think, I think there is a compelling case for kids and their development. And there's a lot more time to play and have more time outside of the kind of classroom and for the exam kind of culture, which comes with schools, but I think that's quite separate case from, kind of benefits for teachers. But you know, if you think about all of the sectors of the economy, and I can't really think of two better examples where you know, burnout, stress, overwork, are kind of rife, you know, that is you think about NHS and schools, you look at the data witness, I mean, you know, particularly in education, teachers are leaving after a year of burnout and that, that means that that means a kid's education, some of the best teachers are moving on and not staying in the sector, and creates all sorts of problems in terms of job recruitment, job retention, so they really never thinking about this holistically. There is there is a case for getting that. But it's quite difficult to implement that on I kind of bit by bit on school here, one school there. There does need to be some sunlight coordination. Paul Thomas 22:34 Yeah, I know, it was commented in this, as I said, I told a WhatsApp group that you were coming on to this call this morning and got loads of comments back and that was one of the questions. So okay, if the school goes to a four day week, what's the point in me having a four day week, I might have to go back to the five day week, because if the kids are around then I lose the benefit of having that fifth day. Joe Ryle 22:53 I mean a lot of parents probably want more time with their kids, but I'm sure it goes the other way as well. And I mean, obviously, there's all sorts of problems of childcare in this country as well, which hopefully is it's, you know, it's finally getting a bigger conversation about it anyway. But yeah, it's tricky. The worrying thing in the NHS, as well as that, you know, if you look at all the survey data, the you know, the number one reason NHS workers are leaving is because there's a lack of work life balance, it comes back time and time again, all survey data is that is the first reason they're putting. So yes, we need more nurses and doctors and yes that there probably would be some cost to that, and the government would have to put some money in. But whatever is happening right now is not working you know, for anyone so, we do need to think bigger. Paul Thomas 23:40 So who's coming to you then. So who's going to help, for you to help? We hear four day week is being more widely adopted by small businesses, but even your, who's sort of coming to you demanding help or looking for help? Joe Ryle 23:55 Yes. So it's a really, really wide mix of companies really, it does tend to be at the moment that kind of smaller businesses in the private sector has kind of been the early pioneers, there's definetly hundreds of those companies that have done it in the UK, which is you know, just a significant, are still a relatively smaller scale, but it's a significant change in what you know, where we were a few years ago, where you could kind of count the amount of four day week companies on one or two hands. And we ran the biggest ever pilot four day working week in the world, so far. Last year, we had about 61 companies signed up, which was the equivalent of 3000 workers. And the exciting thing was it was a real mix of, of companies from across different sectors of the economy. So we had healthcare, retail, manufacturing, hospitality, that efficient chip shop taking part in a brewery taking parts and they weren't all taken Friday's off you know, some of those companies were doing 32 hours but on a different rotation. So some stuff having Monday's off some stuff having Friday's off. Some companies even doing five days and five much shorter days is better two hours over five days. But you know, the overriding principle, they're reducing hours by 80% and maintaining payment. The results were incredible, you know, we had almost every company at the end of that six month trial decided to continue with it, really, really impressive results in terms of the benefits for workers, better well being better mental health, people were just reporting that their life satisfaction is out there enjoying their lives more. And then on the flip side, for the companies, you know, companies actually making more profits than they were before job retention, reduction in sick days. So it's a real bit of benefits for businesses as well. So it tends to be a real mix, we've started running more kind of national rollout programmes, and we're going to run those and of course, the support companies in moving for 40 minutes, it does seem to be a real mix for that couldn't can't really pin it down in terms of this particular sector. And that comes to us more. Zoe Amar 25:58 And Joe, that kind of impetus that energy for those conversations you've talked about with companies, where is it coming from? Is it coming more from the kind of grassroots, the employees? Or is the drive coming from leaders? What trends are you noticing there? Joe Ryle 26:13 I think initially, and I think that's where we are, I believe we're at the very beginning of a societal shift towards a four day working week. And if you look at the history of the kind of move from a six day weeks to a five days, it did take at least a decade, you know, it was at least a decade, for that change to happen. I think we're at the very beginning of that. So in that respect, it is the kind of really it is the kind of early pioneers, it is the bosses who were like, you know, what, this sounds really good, we're gonna make this work, I believe in my in my workers, and I'm really going to value them by giving them this change, but also, you know, kind of benefit our business as well, in terms of better productivity and all the rest of it. So I think it is, yeah, I think the kind of hundreds of companies have done it so far. They are the kind of people the bosses, the good bosses, if you like, who really believe in it, who really believe in passing back to their workers, which has been great. But you know, that's not going to lead to a four day work week for everyone. So we do, we are starting to see more and more of kind of workers thinking about how they can kind of start organising for this in their workplace, you know, and they start demanding this, and they're presenting the kind of case for it to their employer. And we're, you know, we are trying to get more support the trade union movement as well, in terms of you know, then also being involved in this because it you know, it was, we've got to remember it was the trade unions that basically won us the weekend 100 years ago. So there's, we've been, there's definitely a role to play in this. Zoe Amar 27:38 That's so interesting. And what it makes me think of is some of the conversations I've had with people who have successfully taken on a four day week, and how it forces you to be really disciplined in how you spend your time across those four days, like less meetings and all that kind of thing. Are there any trends that you've seen in those changes in working habits that people might need to make in order to really go for it with a full day week? Joe Ryle 28:05 Yes, I think there's two parts to the four day working week being implemented successfully. The first part is just that you reduce people's hours, wellbeing does go up. And that is is always passed on back to the kind of workplace that you do just get natural productivity gains from that. But the second part of it is, is about working differently and working smarter and kind of refocusing priorities sometimes for organisations. And yeah, we do a whole load of work with companies sometimes to think about that. And you do all this up naturally adjust. You know, like, for example, when I start my work week, on a Monday, I kind of I know it's Monday to Thursday, so you just adjust things, and until then, and sometimes that will mean having a much busier first day than I normally would do. But you know, I'm quite happy to work like that, and hopefully get quite a lot done on that Thursday to mean that Friday, I'm fully off and not thinking about work at all. So that's been reported back a few times by employees, you know, some this sort of like you naturally adjust to fit your work into those four days, Paul Thomas 29:11 Then you have to be quite disciplined, don't you? So you know, I've said several times to Zoey right? That's it, doing a nine day or a nine day fortnight. And then when it comes to that Friday, and somebody sends you that email saying oh could you just fit in a call on Friday morning? Well, yeah, suppose I could because then I've got the whole of the rest of the day ahead of me and then suddenly, two calls and then three calls and then that disappears. So I guess it's easier for an organisation should be an organ easier for an organisation like mine or Zoe's to just say, right, that's it. That's what we're doing. And then when anybody joins, that's what they're joining, as opposed to creating this change in an organisation that's just not used to it. Joe Ryle 29:53 Yeah, and I think that highlights one of the biggest problems we're facing which is that you know, some organisations are moving to a four day working week are doing it still in a society, which is very dominated by this kind of five day working week. And it's kind of always on culture. And we think we also have to consider the impact that you know, smartphones have had on the workplace and this kind of yeah, this always on, you know, you're always expected to kind of have your emails on your phone and respond to stuff. And yeah, I mean, that's, that's why we do always say, when companies move to a four day week is like, you know, don't lie in the fact you've done it, you know, put it on your email signature, make sure people know, that's how you're working. So people, because then people know not to contact you or that Friday, because usually, they can respond actually on the Monday instead, you know, it's not normally, that we always have, we will have moments in work where there's, there's, we just, we usually really need to get your head down and get stuff done. But most of the time, it's not like that, and stuff can wait into the Monday, but it is tricky, and without society kind of wholeheartedly adopting that, you know, across the board. And so everyone's kind of knows that that's the new work pattern, then you aren't going to have those issues. So there is a level of discipline, but we don't really ever find it, it takes that much. And we will have it on own our email signatures, we will have, you know, our standard working days are Monday to Thursday, some people know that I think, Zoe Amar 31:16 So which companies are doing this especially well, through your work. Who have you seen Joe, that's implemented this really effectively? Joe Ryle 31:23 That's a good question. I mean, it's always the best case. Best case, and they're always the ones where there's not real amount of time has been put in. So we've started consultation beforehand, to really sit down with staff talk through their hopes, their fears in and try and work through some of those as much as possible before actually adopting it to really include them in the process. So they're really built into the kind of journey and Friends of the Earth actually, the NGO you may have heard of, they've just moved to a four day work week. And you know, they took their time over I think they took between six months to a year in terms of the senior HR managers and, and senior management really considering and thinking about how it's going to work, then having a full consultation process of all the different departments to see how it was gonna work. And they didn't come into it, saying, This is how we're doing it, and everyone's gonna have this day off. And in the end, they have ended up because through their consultation, they've ended up with half of their staff having Monday's off and half the staff having Friday's off. And they've done it that way. But yeah, that's one recent example. It's been successful. Paul Thomas 32:32 And they're doing, I read this week. And I think I've got a friend and colleague who lives in Lisbon and talked about how they were talking about a trial in Portugal. And now they've instigated it, haven't they, which is really interesting across many organisations and businesses out in Portugal. And an interesting thing sort of related comment to that is the article I was reading was in an American publication, and they were talking about the huge influx of young Americans to Portugal for that very reason, which I found fascinating. Joe Ryle 33:08 I didn't know about that. That's funny, they just come for the four day week, even though it's just a trial. Therefore, typically, companies it's funny. But yeah, I think that does show how popular it is. And I mean, we think things about here, we should look at the USA in terms of working hours. I mean, I don't think we even get much paid holiday in America. So definitely, things are worse over there. So I'm not surprised that they're desperate, but whatever it is, you know, is a conversation which has been taking off all over the world, including in America, we've seen a couple of states advocating for this. And legislation being pushed through the Congress as well. So it's definitely a conversation which is taking off and yeah, in Scotland and in Portugal, in Spain. There's government pilots starting this year, and obviously we had a was a big pilot. And this took place in Iceland, which again, was very successful results in almost the entire population in Iceland moving to a shorter working weeks. That's the country that's gonna burst ahead on the journey and then another notable, like high, you know, multinational companies, as well, Microsoft in Japan are trialling it, Unilever are trialling it in their Australian and New Zealand offices at the moment. So it's definitely yeah, which is exciting just to see that taking off across the globe. Because it's kind of funny when you think about like this nine to five, five day working week is still the norm across the western world, even though economies are very different that seems to be the standard. Zoe Amar 34:37 Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it to see how different countries are approaching this stuff. And it's fascinating you mentioning Portugal because Paul I remember we discuss something about this, didn't we? During one of the lockdowns how they're quite progressive on things like working from home policies, and I think they also have that digital nomad visa as well. So you talked there, Joe about this kind of societal shift that needs to happen in different countries for the full day week to really be implemented across the board. Is that what the require is to have this real legislative firepower behind it to truly embed it? Joe Ryle 35:14 I think so, you know, if you think about the nature of the global economy now, you know, it is global people are working with people all over the world all the time. And I think even more so now, the move toward zoom and, you know, working here for different platforms, so it wouldn't be better if it's because we've actually worked with quite a few kind of global corporations as well, organisations to have offices all over the world. And it's like, you know, that it's going to be difficult to implement four day week in one place, but there are other partners are working five or six days a week in another country, they work all the time. So yeah, we'd hoped they would kind of spread like that. I think it has gotten to that stage now where, you know, workers, particularly in this country, you know, a lot of workers are burnt out, and they're stressed, they're overworked, and a lot of them aren't being paid very well either, you know, like working long hours, for very little pay. It's not really it's no way to live. And there is a sense that people are desperate for change, really. I think that applies across more broadly across the globe, not just in the UK, I think it's a problem across western economies. Paul Thomas 36:21 So if I am a leader, and I want to implement this, number one, I can pick up the phone, get in touch with you and the campaign and get some help to do it. But role modelling has always been really important to me, I've just remember I've just reflected on a story that I heard when I was working for a firm of accountants. And the Floor Plan was such that the lifts were sort of central to the building, and there were two, it was circular. So you could move around the office in different ways. And there was one partner so you know, very, very high up in the organisation, but had a small child that he needed to pick up from nursery. And rather than walk past his team to get to the lift, he'd walk the other way to get to the lift on the days where he had to go and pick his child up from nursery, which I felt was really sad, and also not great role modelling. So how do you help leaders who need to sort of step up and make sure that they're leading by example, to actually do that? Joe Ryle 37:22 Well, the best thing is to actually make sure that if you're a senior management level that you actually do it as well, because we have seen that a few times where the rest of the workforce is doing realistically, it's their four day week, but they're kind of managers are coming in on Fridays. And it actually, that sets a bad example, because then as a more junior employee, you know, you feel like we are not, you're not working as hard as they are. So I would say to speak to it as much as possible for management. And you know, of course, that may be trickier in the first couple of months, or even then there's always a period of adjustment when moving. So it's, you wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't necessarily expect everyone to have four days every single week for the first two, three to six months. But by the end of that it tends to be around six months, by the end of that six month period, the whole organisation does change the way it's working. And it does feel more natural for everyone. And sticking to it is important. Yeah, also I think just as I was hinting at before, you're not dictating too much the kind of terms of everything. And we so we've definitely worked with one quite big company who their parameters were that, you know, you can have the four day week, if you're meeting these very specific performance targets. If they're not being met, then you're going to lose it. So there was one department who lost the four day week for a month during their six month trial because they weren't meeting their performance targets. And then they put it back afterwards. But it just it created a not very nice culture in the workplace. And we wouldn't recommend it that way. Paul Thomas 38:54 We'll include some stories in the show notes, and anything you want to share as well, please do send through but one of the one I noticed was that, and I think I picked this up from the Daily Mail, which was always helpful, who this council is in trouble because they have implemented a four day a week and everyone's really upset about it. But one of the things that they said from the headline I read was four day week trials in public sector in South Cambridgeshire. And it says they will test the 32 hour a week on the principle that staff will work more intensely and productively. And that's that word intensely that really, really sort of hits home. It's like well, yeah, you can have this but you know, regiment, regiment regiment? Joe Ryle 39:34 Yeah, I mean, I think it was only the Daily Mail that were angry about that Council. I don't think anyone else was it, you know, definitely because we worked with them on that. And there definitely hasn't been any complaints from residents. You know, they're trying to, the council actually trying to save money through doing it. And from what we've seen, it's actually worked very well and it's actually meeting all of their performance targets. So, but yeah, I think that is a problem and perhaps to be frank, that may, you know, I'll be honest, maybe mistakes we've made as well in the campaign like the, the principles in which we communicated the UK pilot. We were working on that with a few other organisations was the kind of 180/100 model, which is about achieving 100% productivity and 80% of the time, while maintaining pay. And actually, we've moved away from that now, because we don't think that's actually very, very helpful framing. It is about, you know, people will be more productive when they're working less, but it's not, it's also about working differently and changing the way you work. And so we do think that kind of undulating 100 isn't quite communicated before the weakest link. And in some cases, it will be about changing job descriptions to remove some tasks that aren't particularly useful, really. So I think sometimes, you know, maybe put the communication a little bit wrong there. But we're starting to be clear on how this works and this works pretty well. Paul Thomas 40:57 And don't believe the Daily Mail. Joe Ryle 40:59 And don't believe the Daily Mail, yeah, that's always a good move. Zoe Amar 41:04 So Joe, what challenges do you see ahead for your campaign? So we talked a lot about where the campaign is now, but what challenges and perhaps what opportunities and trends do you see ahead? Joe Ryle 41:14 The main challenge is trying to persuade more and more organisations to move to a four day week, while society is still so dominated by a five day week. So the challenge, there really is persuading the government and obviously, probably going to have a change of government in the next year to 18 months, persuading the government at the time to really take this seriously, and really be involved in this, involved in coordination, because without government involvement, it's gonna be very hard to see this kind of roll out across the economy. So I think there's gonna be a big challenge in the next couple of years. But we're quite confident, you know, one area we haven't touched upon is like, automation, artificial intelligence, new technology, I mean, all of this is going to make the workforce more productive. But it also is going to, you know, reduce the amount of work and jobs that are available. And so from our point of view, the best way of dealing with that is a shorter working week. So you're sharing the kind of diminishing amount of work equally across the economy. And in that way, we can all benefit from artificial intelligence and automation, it means we don't have to be scared of it. So definitely, in terms of opportunities, we think that is going to be more and more of an opportunity. And if you think about the NHS, you know, there's ways in which artificial intelligence and new technology is being rolled out across the NHS to make, for example, operations more efficient and productive, which should reduce the amount of work so that I think that's a huge opportunity again. Is there a way I could actually make the four day week a bit easier to do? Yeah, definitely. I mean, someone was saying the other day, you know, we should have, we should already have a four day weekend, and AI should give us a free day. But I don't think we're quite there yet, in terms of advocating for a three day week, one day at a time. But yeah, I think definitely, you know, there was a Nobel Prize winning economist who said, about a month ago, he said, you know, artificial intelligence should mean, finally workers get a four day week. I definitely agree with him on that. Zoe Amar 43:12 Amazing, Joe, thank you so much. This has been really inspiring. I'm sure lots of leaders listening to this will find it so useful for helping them plan for a full day week. And you've certainly got Paul and I thinking that we must try and work a four day week sooner rather than later. So thank you, for all your practical advice and for giving us such a great insight into the trends out there. Joe Ryle 43:33 That's alright. Yeah, you should, you should definitely give it a go. I always, you know, I always say why not? Give it a go for a couple of months and see how it goes? And what's the worst that can happen? You try it for three months and see how it goes. And yeah, thanks for having me on. Paul Thomas 43:45 No, thank you. Zoe Amar 43:46 Our pleasure. Paul Thomas 43:46 Thank you very much indeed. Thank you so much to Joe for coming on to the podcast. Fascinating look at how we make that work life blend work for us all. And we'd be really interested to know from all of our listeners how you're embracing the idea, or not with the four day week or the nine day fortnight. If you are, your stories, please. Zoe Amar 44:07 We'd love to hear about that. We're now going off on our summer holidays. So the next episode will be in September, which was like a long way off, but we'll be here in a flash. In the meantime, you can find us on Twitter we're at @Startsatthetop1 and you can also email us at startsatthetop@gmail.com Paul Thomas 44:30 And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or anywhere else that you can rate and review, please do, all those ratings, and particularly the reviews help us to gather more listeners. Tell us what you like about the podcast. And we will come back to you speak to you again in September. Thanks for listening. Zoe Amar 44:46 See you in September. Transcribed by https://otter.ai