Michael Rucker 0:00 I think fun is anything that's- that's pleasurable, right? And so, we realise that a lot of what we had talked about pre-pandemic was really forced fun, which isn't fun at all for most people. Paul Thomas 0:15 Welcome to Starts at the Top, our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul Thomas. Zoe Amar 0:20 And I'm Zoe Amar. Today's episode is a little different from our usual format as we talk about fun in the workplace. Paul Thomas 0:28 What we're sharing today is a great discussion Zoe and I had in December with Emmy O'Shaughnessy, who's Director of Innovation & Growth at Oxfordshire Youth. And Michael Rucker, creator and author of The Fun Habit: a brand new book about the pursuit- pursuit of joy and wonder and how it can change your life. Michael is also CDO at Active Wellness in San Francisco and an Organisational Psychologist and Behavioural Scientist. Zoe Amar 0:52 This was a fascinating conversation, and we're so pleased to be launching it during the week, which is supposed to be the hardest in January every year. And we covered a lot of ground in this chat with Emmy and Michael. And one of the things that we talked about was how we define fun, and how do we make it inclusive for everyone? Well, we all have very different ideas about what fun looks and feels like. So Paul, how do you see fun? When have you had the most fun at work? Paul Thomas 1:23 Well right now Zoe. Zoe Amar 1:24 Right now? [Laughs] Paul Thomas 1:26 Right now! This podcast. Yeah, I think it's funny, isn't it? And I think we go- we go into this in some detail in the episode, but the the conversations we all used to have about, "oh, let's go and have a fun day out. Let's go and do a team building exercise", and that sort of thing. And, and how that is just not fun. I think most of the fun that I found at work was in the one to one interactions with people and making sure that the people that gave me energy, I guess, and made me happy at work were the people that I sought out and spent time with. And it was always good if those people were in your team and the people you worked with day to day. But I think for me it was about the people and just making sure I made time to be with them. How about you? Zoe Amar 2:17 Yeah, I agree. I mean, as someone who is an introvert, I've never really liked that enforced idea of fun. And especially back in the days when I worked in the city and in a corporate environment. There were a lot of assumptions about fun that I found quite challenging as- as a young woman, especially a woman of colour. So for example, everyone's gonna go out drinking and get really hammered. And that's not really me, because certainly now I don't drink at all, I'm half Chinese, I'm going to be going quite red and feel quite ill. So I think that's one of my takeaways from this episode is actually it's not about this top down idea of 'this is what I think fun is', because that can create a really weird power dynamic, it's actually about empowering people to tease out what- what their idea of fun means to them. Paul Thomas 3:08 Yeah. Now a thing that was key wasn't it in this conversation - everybody's idea of what fun means is completely different. You drew up the- the dictionary definition, which was more about joy and enjoyment, and pleasure and those sorts of things. And everyone experiences that in different ways. And to make it really inclusive is to make sure that you listen, I think Emmy will make a point that everyone will hear later about listening and making sure that you involve everyone in the- in the decision. So you don't end up in a pub, or in an escape room or something like that with people that you don't want to spend time with. It's about spending time and energy with those people that give you that energy back. Zoe Amar 3:57 Oh, god absolutely! You've reminded me I'm going to an escape room from my 12 year old's birthday party tomorrow. So I don't know whether that's gonna be fun. It's gonna be fun for him, certainly. It's interesting what you say there just before we get into that conversation, because for me, fun is- is about nerding out with a tonne of post-its and people who I love working with and who I'm learning a lot from. And then for other people, it might be that trip to the pub after work. So you're right, I think we need to look at this in a much more democratic, inclusive way. Paul Thomas 4:31 For sure, for sure. And I think that's what we sort of arrived at during this conversation. And is the entire focus of Michael's books. We don't want to take too much away from him. We just want to get on and share the episode and see what- see what Emmy and Michael had to say. Zoe Amar 4:51 And now for our conversation with Emmy and Michael. We are very excited to have two amazing guests here on Starts at the Top today. Emmy O'Shaughnessy is the Director of Innovation and Growth and Deputy CEO of Oxfordshire Youth. Studying her MA in applied theatre at Goldsmiths college led Emmy to practice community arts, particularly with young people in care, disabled young people, and those living through mental health challenges. Her studies explored the themes of love and creativity as joint catalysts for community powered healing and social change. She has been a charity CEO for a community art centre, founding the first disability Youth Arts Festival in Oxford, ROAR, and a trustee for arts organisations working with young women, a youth worker, and a poet. Her own care experience has been a guiding presence in establishing core values of belonging, community healing, joy, creative freedom, and kindness. In her current role, she centres collaboration and imagination in designing systems change approaches to tackling the root causes of inequality, in Oxford: the second most unequal city in the UK. We are also delighted to welcome Dr. Mike Rucker to the podcast today. He is an Organisational Psychologist, Behavioural Scientist, and charter member of the International Positive Psychology Association. He has been academically published in publications like The International Journal of Workplace Health Management. His ideas about fun and health have been featured in The Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, Fast Company, Psychology Today, Forbes, Box, Thrive Global, Mindful, Mindbodygreen, and more. He currently serves as a senior leader at Active Wellness, and is the author of the new book: The Fun Habit, which is available in January 2023. Welcome to Starts at the Top Emmy and Mike! Thank you so much for joining us here today. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 7:09 Thank you for having me. [Laughs] Michael Rucker 7:11 Thank you for having us. Zoe Amar 7:13 We are so thrilled to have you both here today. And before we hit record earlier, we were talking about how those definitions and maybe even those experiences of fun have evolved for all of us since March 2020. So I wondered whether we could start with you Emmy, and you could tell us about how your definition of fun has evolved since that time? Emmy O'Shaughnessy 7:37 Yeah, I mean it does still feel like we're living in a kind of before and after times. So- and now we're kind of integrating this- the experiences we all had through COVID and feeling our way through to- to what our lives are like now and still processing I think a lot of what happened, and how it's changed us. So I don't think there's been a hard and fast transformation of- of what fun means to me. I think the way that I have fun and the way that we have fun together, in work and within friendship is still similar to the ways that we had fun before, but I suppose what happened for me in work, during the pandemic, and that period was really an opportunity to be creative about how we could stay in connection, and bring ourselves and our humanity to the fore during really, really troubling, uncertain times. And, you know, at that time I was running the art centre, so it wasn't where I was now. And, you know, we- we found a way across the team of 13 that we were then of sharing and exchanging stories that that bonded us together. And I think one of the definitions I most kind of I'm drawn to around fun is this sense of lighthearted pleasure. And that felt like a really difficult state to get into during COVID. The feeling of being light hearted, during such a difficult and lonely time. But we you know, I think people did manage it. And I remember back to all of those amazing videos that were being shared in early stages with a surge of creativity, in terms of how people were expressing this new experience of being in lockdown in really creative ways brought people a sense of lighthearted pleasure at a really difficult time. And it was really interesting to- to observe that over the course of COVID those really started declining I think as the weight- the weight and the heaviness of that human experience just felt like interminable. And so kind of within our own organisation, we did find ways of kind of sharing music and songs that we loved. I remember posting putting things in the post, boxes of cookies to members of the team with a little handwritten note. Just to keep those- those connections and those bonds feeling rich. But I think that is one of the things about an experience like COVID and what we went through, and now with the cost of living crisis, is that the longer heavy situations go on, the kind of more effort you have to put in to really fight for the importance of pleasure and fun and joy. It- it becomes more difficult and challenging, but even more necessary. Zoe Amar 10:41 Absolutely, fun can feel like quite a hard won state can't it when we're going through this continuous period of turbulence like this? And Mike, how about you? How has your definition of fun changed since since COVID began? Michael Rucker 10:58 I think dovetailing off of Emmy, the definition per se hasn't changed. You know, for me, it's similar, in psychology, there's this academic term called valence, that essentially just means pleasure or lack of pleasure. And so I think fun is anything that's that's pleasurable, right? And so COVID didn't necessarily change that. I think what COVID did in the context of fun at work is that we realised that a lot of what we had talked about pre pandemic was really forced fun, which isn't fun at all, for most people. And so, one, there was this empowerment, right? Because autonomy was essentially a component to be able to survive that. I mean bosses had to essentially relinquish some control to allow their companies to continue to operate. And I think people felt comfortable with that, and realised that they had a little bit more agency, maybe than they did before. And so now what we're seeing is that folks, post pandemic, understanding that, hey, fun at work specifically is supposed to be a little bit more inclusive. I would bring up the, you know, French case that was popular last week about the gentleman that just, you know, one court case, saying that my company's version of fun wasn't fun for me at all. And, you know, when he had kind of expressed his opinions, he was fired. And he ultimately won that case, right. And I think that's a good example of what's kind of happening across the board globally is like, you know, if you're prescribing or suggesting that I have to do something, that's really an extension of work, that's not necessarily fun for me. And so strong leaders are really co-creating these inclusive environments and approaching them with a lot more empathy, which I see as a good sign, and a change post pandemic than what was happening in pre-pandemic. Zoe Amar 12:57 I'm so pleased you've raised that news story, because Paul spotted it earlier this week, and DM'd it to me, saying "we must talk about this on Friday with Emmy and Mike!" Paul, can you just give us some background on the news story, for anyone who's not familiar with it? Paul Thomas 13:13 Well, I'll have to try and remember, yeah, but it was a french- french guy who sort of literally stood up and said, "no, this forced activity is not something that I want to do", and because he- he sort of stood up for- for, well probably many people within the organisation who had a similar view to him, they fired him for it. And he took them to court. I mean, that's essentially it. I guess it is that sense, isn't it that we all have within organisations and often it's around things like you know, recently with somebody I've been working with there have been discussions about 'why is fun always associated with going to the pub and alcohol? Why is fun always associated with taking me out of my day to day and supplanting me somewhere where I'm now forced to take part in an activity that just isn't fun for me, you know, because I don't like that sort of thing?' And I think there's a very different- there's a different thing there isn't there, versus what Emmy and Michael have shared, which is much more based around kindness and fun as a sort of a lightener to the heaviness of work rather than, you know, what we've all been used to: team building, which is- is not the same thing. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 14:29 Yeah, I was thinking this morning actually about this idea, before we met in terms of forced fun, because I read one of your blogs Mike on this. I was really interested in it because I was thinking about the Google offices and when they first started putting out the images of them having kind of slides at work and table tennis setups and their environment just being this kind of mini playground. I was thinking how at the time people- there was quite a lot of buzz around it being a creative environment and one that was stimulating this playfulness and creativity. And then I think, the more I reflected on it, and especially after reading your blog Mike, I was thinking it actually, there's something a little bit sinister about those environments that in some ways are trying to control your states of mind and being for the purpose of you being more productive. Like is- was the purpose of designing those environments to genuinely from the heart create a- create a relaxed, playful space? Or is it to create a kind of artificial sense of fun, where people go and kind of decompress a little bit from work so that they go back to work and work harder? And that, for me feels like a kind of undercover mechanism of capitalism. Make it look pretty on the outside, but is it coming from a really authentic place of wanting people just to have a good quality of life, and- and connect with each other in a meaningful way? Those are my thoughts, on environments and how we build fun looking environments at work in a way that's like authentic. Michael Rucker 16:19 Yeah, I think it's twofold, right? Like, obviously, I agree with that since [laughs], but I think allowing employees to self select, because Google does do some things wrong, but where they get one thing right, is they have affinity groups. And so that allows employees some self selection, like I get to choose to do this, rather than I have to do it. And so I think that's the key distinction. It doesn't become an extension of work, if you're self selecting into it, because it's something that you enjoy. And the added benefit of that is it's generally cross departmental. So you know, you're getting there's no sort of leadership dynamic, or, you know, where that can become quite problematic, right? If your boss asks you to come to happy hour, you're a lot less likely to say no, but if you're self selecting, and it's from a different team, then you know, that might be something you actually want to do. And so I think that that's the difference. Zoe Amar 17:23 Do you have any advice either of you on some principles on how we can make fun inclusive in the workplace? Michael Rucker 17:32 I think it starts with empathy, right? You really need to listen. I've been talking to a lot of folks smarter than me with this problem specifically. And I think the crux is psychological safety, right? That is the common theme that comes up. One colleague of mine, a gentleman by the name of Jeff Harry, he said it in the most funny way he's like, so in the States, a big team building thing is escape rooms. I don't know if they're as popular in the UK, but like, so you take a bunch of employees that don't like each other, and then lock them in a room, like... [Laughs] Zoe Amar 18:06 [Laughs] Paul Thomas 18:07 [Laughs] Michael Rucker 18:06 Like in that context, that's terrible, right? So I think starting, you know, from a place of empathy, and really listening, and then co-creating that experience, whatever it is, as something as simple as 'do we want to take this meeting outside and walk and do it', because that's an appropriate thing. I mean, that's low level pleasure, but it's still making something, you know, that's kind of stuffy and boring within the context of a boardroom and making it more enjoyable, right? You know just things that are a lot more creative, you know, based on the- you know what that particular group finds fun. So I think that's where it starts psychological safety. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 18:48 I think that listening piece is really important. And- and I know that that requires time. And a real commitment from people in organisations saying, 'building empathy requires really deep listening', and that's gonna take time, and that's not necessarily like a work scheduled task. It's kind of a way of being together as an organisation. And I think what I've what I've noticed recently, in our organisation, about 50 plus employees, is that there are just as many versions of what it means to have fun as there are people that you're working with, right? So recognising the diversity of experiences and diversity of ways that people resource themselves through fun and what fun means to them. And I've been since being asked to come on this podcast, I've been asking different people across the team, different ages, what does fun mean to you? What that looked like? And there is- it's the recognition that- that there will be a real variety across the board and being able to be open to that diversity of experience when it comes to what brings people pleasure, and what brings people joy is, I think, a really important part of making it inclusive. And also giving choice. So recently, I've gave kind of three or four different things that I had found as activities for us to have some time together as a team. And then we had a big discussion about it, and what it would mean for people and what kind of felt a bit uncomfortable and out of the comfort zone. And you know, that was healthy, and then the next time around, it will be somebody else in the team who comes up with their selection and offers it out. So I think that opportunity to bring choice is completely crucial. As well as like really celebrating the diversity, the full spectrum of fun across the community you're working with, and being willing to like dip your toes in somebody else's version to try it out and you never know what it might teach you and, and bring you. Paul Thomas 20:58 It's funny, though, isn't it? Because I remember- I remember back in- in my sort of corporate days, we moved offices. We had a really nice set up in one office, we moved to another and there was a real sense of, we've moved over here. We're all sitting in different locations. We're sort of not necessarily together in the same way that we used to be. How can we bring a sense of community and adjustment? And we stole- I stole something from from Twitter, and I think it was- I think it was something that was shared on- yeah I can't remember where it was shared anyway, it was stolen from Twitter, and it was called Tea Time. And what it meant was, every Thursday at four o'clock, we just had a- we made tea and cakes, and we put them in the kitchen area. And if you wanted to come along to it, you could come along. And it gradually sort of the- the immediate thing was, it was suspicion. Why do you want to give us tea and cakes and why four o'clock on a Thursday? Well, that just made sense. People were generally in the office on a Thursday. Friday was a time when people weren't around so much. It was a nice thing to lean into- into Friday. There was nothing to be suspicious about. But what it became, was exactly that, where you had people that started to get in touch with me and said, "can I have a slot at tea time? I want to update somebody on- I want to update the team on some work that we're doing", or things like that. We even had it- it started to become a way for people that practice different religions to come and share their holidays and experiences that we wouldn't normally get as a team. This is how we celebrate these religious festivals and things like that. But the- the crux of it, the thing that started it was just us saying "right, half an hour on a Thursday. Let's just take that out of the diary. Make sure people know that they have something that they can come and attend". And I don't know whether it still goes on today. Probably not. But it was just one of those things that you said, exactly what you said, it's giving people time. But isn't it funny how giving people that time is met with suspicion straight away? [Laughs] Michael Rucker 23:02 It is. And one thing that's not talked about enough, is protecting people's leisure outside of work, right? Like so, a crux to my academic research was with physicians, right? And so- but I'll be asked like, "well, how do you make folks that work at a suicide hotline, you know, have fun?" And so there are going to be certain professions, where within that work environment, because of what you signed up for, fun isn't an appropriate thing to interweave within it. So in those cases, to be able to ensure that your employees have fun, then you need to protect their leisure time, right? And that's something that we just don't talk about enough. Like, there's been a lot of studies done with regards to what happens during the lunch hour. And the people that have the most fun are just the ones that are allowed to choose it. So ironically, people would, if it's of their own choosing, will have more fun working through lunch than having lunch with their boss, because they got to choose, that's what they want to do. But also these times for renewal so often are like, 'okay, well, we'll just grind it out, right?' Where just that sort of break from the monotony allows you to come with a much more joyful sort of spirit when you return. And that's true, especially here in the States with regards to just taking time off of work. I'm at, you know, where the average leisure duration per year is 40 hours, which essentially means you only took five days off, you know? I mean that's just- we know what the outcome now is because of all the studies on burnout. So, you know, that's not necessarily a component while you're in work, but it is certainly a component of fun and work. And so, you know, we need to talk about that more too. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 24:50 What is- one of the difficulties we're finding at the moment, just linked to what you were saying about how- how do you find or locate a sense of fun if you're running a suicide hotline? Is it appropriate to ever place that as a value based within that field or area of focus? Or is it just about outside time? We want to support accommodation for young people who are- who are kind of living through complex trauma. Lots of the million people from the care system, unaccompanied asylum seekers. And recently we have worked on our values. And we have brought fun into one of our value statements, because as a youth charity, we feel like it's really important that we are placing our attention on that as a kind of mechanism for healing with young people, for relationship building, for resilience, and also just that a lot of children and young people who are having a tough time don't often get to have a lot of fun. So we've made this really big shift in our values to bring fun into it. But the- the resistance that came from within our team was from the team who are delivering supported accommodation, support to those young people, because their feedback was "we don't have time for fun, because we are on the front line". It is so relentless in terms of the issues and the levels of safeguarding and kind of complex trauma and the needs. Like it almost felt like an insulting lack of recognition of how serious and heavy their job was. So how do we reconcile those, because I don't want to be naive about this. But I still do believe that fun- a space for fun can be found in those environments, and actually are really important as a kind of antidote for lightening some of the heaviness. I don't have the answers, but I'm curious what you think. Michael Rucker 26:49 Well- you already brought up some of the answers, right? It's gonna take time, and it's going to require listening to what will allow them to build that resilience, right? I had the same challenges working with a physician group, because at the time, the CMO was a leader, right? So all I was doing was providing recommendations, and everything was additive. And I was- we haven't created the space for these folks to be able to enjoy any of what we've just discussed. And, you know, we just didn't have the power within that wellbeing committee to manipulate the way they spent their work hours. If you do have any of that I think it's starting with 'okay, we understand that this is a heavy work task, and so maybe we don't start there, but how do we support you outside of, you know, the duty that you've kind of signed up for, so that you can begin to create that space?' I find whenever anyone's sort of stuck, it's because there is no capacity to add things on. We need to start with sort of figuring out how do we create a little bit more space, so fun can live? Which is not easy. [Laughs] Emmy O'Shaughnessy 28:03 [Laughs] Yeah, how do we do that, and meet our contract KPIs? [Laughs] Michael Rucker 28:08 That's right. So I think, again, generally the most creative ideas do come from the group. You know, it's like, 'okay, we're here to support and we're here to listen. We're not gonna prescribe right here at the starting line. What could we do to help?' And then sometimes it's again, and this is a lesson that I've only learned in the last year as well, sometimes it has to start at psychological safety. Like I just don't feel safe right now, not because of the job or what leadership is doing, but because there's such a heavy toll - okay, let's fix that first, and then fun can kind of sprout from there. So, hope that's helpful. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 28:47 Yeah, that's awesome. Zoe Amar 28:50 That's fascinating, and I think that's sort of leads me to my next question, which is about, what is the value of fun if there is one? So I think we've touched on some things around wellbeing and employee motivation, and maybe even some potential health outcomes, like you were saying, like if people can get away from work on time, even if they're doing a tremendously difficult job, then they can go and have fun and maybe let off some steam somewhere. But is- has there been any research done, or have you seen anything in your workplace Emmy around, what's the value of fun? Michael Rucker 29:25 Well, I can say, what the science supports is, if we now know it sort of builds the building blocks of your purview, right? And so, we've learned a lot about how the brain works, especially in the last decade, and it's not necessarily cause and effect like we thought, it's more predictive, right? And so once we start to experience more fun and joy, optimism, just naturally grows, and so we start to see things in a light that is just a little bit more joyful. And so there's some equity that happens once you're able to build that in. And so, you know we're either generally kind of moving down the you know, hedonic treadmill as it were, or moving up, and- but there's this equity where we don't understand what's happening in the moment. We're either enjoying the moment or the- the moment's sort of bringing us down. And it's the- that joyfulness over time, that helps build the resilience, and so that's why we need to protect it. And so that's when it becomes important, because once you stop finding joy in everyday life, weird things start to happen. So specifically, in my own work with physicians, they'll start to lose empathy, and there's a direct line that correlates between lack of empathy and patient outcomes. So all of a sudden, you know, now it's not just affecting the physician, but it's affecting everyone that they're treating. So it's pretty powerful stuff, when you start to peel back the empirical data. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 30:57 Yeah, I was just thinking about the piece around how- how people are able to cope better, and kind of continuous change, but also how people are able to kind of sustain themselves when they're trying to advocate for change, or working in the social justice, and social justice movements. And one of the people who I've been really influenced by is Adrienne Maree Brown, who wrote a book called Pleasure Activism. She's an incredible black activist from the States. Michael Rucker 31:34 It's a great book. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 31:35 Oh my god, it's so good! Just gonna say everyone go buy and read this book. But I read that during the pandemic, and it was really- it was really fundamental in terms of shifting some thinking about the way that I have approached work in social justice for so long as a kind of focus, but it's come from a place of like, it's just never enough. You know, we have to just keep on going and keep on going. And it's about- and it can be about community and relationships, and all of the gorgeous things that work- my work in the community has brought as well, but also it can feel like 'god, are we ever gonna get there?' And what her book really helped me to think differently about was how- how approaching social you know oppression and social injustice from a place of- of thinking about what feels good for people. Like, where do you draw your sense of inner power from, or kind of who around you really lifts you? Why is that? And I suppose taking a really curious approach to getting to know yourself, and all the things that bring you a sense of pleasure, or joy, or kind of fun, or uplift, is kind of the foundation actually for social justice work. Because you can land on that when things get really tough and bounce back. I just hadn't thought about it in that way before. So I think in- in terms of how...I suppose I've started seeing the value of fun within, you know, the voluntary sector, and all the different social causes that we're, you know, lots of us are- are engaged with and passionate about, we've never really seen fun as a potential kind of tool for furthering social change. We're a kind of resource for helping further social change. But I do think it really has some exciting, 'this is what her book made me think about', like, wow, it can be like an amazing agent for change, as well as just like a beautiful thing to experience that brings people together. But what does it mean kind of politically, is something I hadn't thought about before I read that book. Michael Rucker 33:58 In my book, I spend a chapter unpacking that as well. And I think, though, the simple frame right, is that fun attracts and the levity, you know, sort of repels, and so to be able to even do that work, if it's not fun at all. There are folks that sort of have a slant towards martyrdism [martyrdom], and they'll eventually just burn out, right? And so the smart ones, the ones that are just crushing it, are the ones that kind of factor in renewal, because they know the fight will never end, right? These big causes, they might, you know, be lucky if they see one or two successes in their lifetime. And that can be really heavy when you think about it in context, right? So if you're not enjoying the process along the way, even though it's this sort of awful thing, there are really, really poor outcomes. Especially for folks that are in leadership positions in these places that feel like if they're not working all the time, that they're failing in some manner. And so trying to reframe in that way, becomes extremely additive, right? And so I chose some case studies where, you know, folks that aren't able to do that, generally abandon the cause, because why would you want to just feel awful all the time, right? I don't think it's- it's too much of a trope to say we're pleasure seeking animals. We know it's way more complex than that. But we certainly don't want to feel awful all the time. Yeah. Paul Thomas 35:25 It's one of those things that I feel that we fairly regularly see through social media is that post that pops up in your feed that says, "that's it. I've gotta go away for a bit. I can't do this anymore", because of various reasons. And it's that pause that people take a move away. Whereas I think what we're trying to say here is, how do you support people who end up in that space to just stop them getting to that point where they just have to walk away from everything? How do you sustain that on a on a regular basis, and if you are fighting against huge injustice or whatever, it must be just physically exhausting. You've got to find that- that sort of- that level of that thing that brings you back and grounds you, otherwise you will burn out. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 36:07 Yeah, and I think this is what's missing for lots of people in organisations, I'm making a massive assumption here, but based on kind of experience, and people that I have spoken to and engaged with, is- is the- is the language around fun, and bringing that into the workplace, and for that to be normalised and part of the language of organisational development and leadership. And that's again Mike, that's another thing I really enjoyed about one of your pieces online was like, 'well, you actually just need to start by asking questions that use some of this vocabulary, and see what happens'. And for it not to be seen as fluff, you know, and the kind of not serious stuff. And I think that is- that's the kind of beginning point, just bringing those conversation, bringing those questions into supervision, into team meetings, and having open dialogue about what- what it means for people I think is really important. And the other thing I was just gonna say about the value of fun is- is around laughter, and I think- I don't know about how everyone, you know, hear what their experience was during COVID, but I definitely remember there just not being as much laughter heard. You know, it was not a- because we were all so alone, there was probably less of it just out and about in the supermarket hearing people have a giggle or whatever. Waiting in the queue and you know, having a chit chat and making a joke. Those little interactions where laughter could bubble up, just didn't go on. And I think it's a really healthy sign, that fun is being kind of encouraged and cultivated when you're in the office or when you're spending time with people that people are relaxed enough in their bodies to be able to laugh, and have that kind of wholehearted- that wholehearted laugh that is like. You know, it's obviously good for your health as well it's proven isn't it that laughter is a really amazing thing for your nervous system and in general? So I always think when I've- I'm at work, and I'm here, and I hear people laughing together, like, okay people are feeling good. Michael Rucker 38:22 Yeah, it's a great way to smash the hierarchy too, right? And then it's a social cue that there's something that we're connected to, because we're laughing together. And John Cleese has some amazing quotes that I won't try to butcher right now, but I mean you know, essentially how you know, it's a great tool for democracy, right? Because, you know, if two people are laughing together, even if they don't necessarily understand each other, it's, you know, it's a quick way to connect in a really intimate fashion. I love what you just said. Paul Thomas 38:51 The example- my family will kill me for this, but the example it's just brought to mind as we travelled to the States about four or five years ago, and as English people entering the States, there was all this sort of nervousness around 'well they're very vigorous at the border patrol, you know. The police they're- they're gonna check everything'. And when we walked through to- through the airport, we came to the- to the very serious looking policemen in their Boston uniforms. And the guy we were directed towards looked quite frightening, to be honest. And as we walked over towards him, my my youngest son's trousers just fell down. And you could see this guy just crumple, just absolutely crumpled and his smile came up and he started laughing his head off. And he just went, "wait till I tell my wife about what just happened". And we just had the most brilliant introduction to bringing your kids into the States all because my child's trousers fell down. It's that kind of level of- completely floored someone into 'you're not in a position of power anymore. You are me. I am you'. Michael Rucker 39:58 Comedy is timing right? [Laughs] Paul Thomas 40:02 [Laughs] Yeah! Zoe Amar 40:02 It really is! And it's like "Hi, we're British. And we're brilliant at slapstick". [Laughs] Emmy O'Shaughnessy 40:08 Yeah, also there is something about like this in the workplace anyway. And I find this in organisations where there's really rigid hierarchy - the jokes happen kind of at each level, you know. Rather than like, across all layers of the organisation, which is not comfortable. And also, you know, this kind of notion that you have to retain a sense of seriousness and taking yourself seriously in your role is a signal that you are an expert, or you have a level of authority. And I've always said, you know, to my team, "I take my work really seriously. I really try and not take myself seriously". And I think that is something I try and like hold. Because it means that you don't take stuff personally, and you know that we're fluid, messy beings, like just trying our best. And we're gonna make mistakes, and consistently disappoint people and ourselves and get up and try again. And I think that, well I hope that that message kind of gives people that sense of like, it's okay. And I think fun and mistake making is actually really important as a link- as a connector as well. Just like we- we're- we're able to mess up and it's okay. We can have- unless it's causing serious harm to somebody, obviously, then that's not funny, but in general in our work, we can make mistakes and just look at it and hold it with some lightness and our part in it with a little bit of humility and space. Michael Rucker 41:47 Yeah, absolutely. I think if a corporation or workplace is struggling to do that, you know, then you just set up time where the guidelines are, 'you have permission'. This is this is our space- you know, generally it works best if it's a creative endeavour, or you're trying to be innovative, but like we're safe right now to the break things. Like the whole game right now is to- because you're right. I mean it's, you know, fun lives in a space that's not so outcome focused, right? Emmy O'Shaughnessy 42:18 I love that. Michael Rucker 42:18 It's the outcome mentality, that kind of, you know, where we bristle right and tense up, because we're so focused on being right. And so any sort of 'playground' quote unquote, that allows for, you know, creativity and not necessarily having to be right, it's fertile ground for having more fun. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 42:40 I'm enjoying writing notes. That was a great one. Michael Rucker 42:43 I stole that one from John Cleese as well. He has an amazing seminar on it, so I'll send it your way. It's- it's worth an hour. Zoe Amar 42:53 Yeah, I'd be interested to see. And just before we wrap up, I think there's something so interesting in what you've both said about how leaders can perhaps not measure this, but just- just be confident that the workplaces they're making, the workplace is a bit more fun for people, even if it's very low level stuff. That still has- makes a massive difference doesn't it, colleagues coming in and feeling safe to laugh with each other? Do you have any tips either of you around, what can leaders do right now to create a bit more of that sense of joy and fun in the workplace? Michael Rucker 43:29 Well, I love what Emmy brought up, this idea that when inside jokes are only shared, you know, at certain hierarchical levels, that's sending a signal like, you know, that that we're all different. And so figuring out ways to sort of be inclusive, and that really, that you need to lead by example. So a lot of times it's creating experiences that aren't necessarily department dependent, you know, that, you know. And then again, I would go back only because it's important and not talked about enough, that there's signals that we're going to protect your leisure outside of work, too. And again, I'm at the truth be told it is a win win, like Emmy touched on with regards to Google, is that if you provide those types of experiences, one, people live a more joyful life, but it also allows them to bring them- their best selves to work. And so to answer your question, specifically, it is, one, leading by example, so everyone feels safe. It doesn't feel like there are these sort of guardrails against, you know, 'I'm only gonna let my guard down here'. And it definitely takes time. Again, easier said than done, because psychological safety takes time, and why a lot of this kind of feels heavier than it should is, we do- we can't really be 100% our authentic selves, right? There's probably aspects that really aren't supposed to be shared, you know, because they might- they might make somebody else not feel safe, right? So you sort of need to figure out, you know, if you look at it as a venn diagram, what is that sweet spot where everyone is enjoying themselves and everyone's having fun? And unfortunately, the burden falls on leadership to find that, but that's the work, right? And then the second, again, is, how do you create the environment and the space if it can't happen within the workplace outside of the work, so that people just feel that they're living a fun life, because they're enabled by the folks that they work with? Because really, if you think about it, the majority for most of us in the working world is at work, so it- there is sort of a requirement from leadership to protect the space outside of work. Because if they don't, especially in the, you know, information age that we live in, if you're still answering emails, you know, right when you get home, your kids see you on your phone as you walk in, because you're still finishing up a meeting, and then you essentially plop down on the couch and are just answering emails until you essentially go to sleep - that's an extension of work. That's not leisure. And so that's where those, you know, if you- in the EU, they're doing a lot better job here than in the US. But, you know, some companies go as far as shutting down the email servers at 5pm on a Friday, so that there's no expectation that emails are answered on the weekend. So it's that kind of stuff, where leaders can really make an impact. Zoe Amar 46:22 That's really great, Mike. I love that focus on- because I think that work life balance is so often talked about, as a sort of individual responsibility. But actually, what I love there is you said, leaders have got some responsibility here, you know, to really protect that time, because particularly in the charity sector, I work with so many amazing, really conscientious people who will do those extra hours because they're so passionate about the cause. But with leaders really saying "no, look, you know. Go home. Go and rest. Go and be with your family", I think that's a real act of caring, isn't it? Michael Rucker 46:55 Absolutely. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 46:56 I've gotta- Paul Thomas 46:58 Michael Wilkinson in our last episode, where- the RNID where- creating those- or having a- getting rid of office hours, for example, so people can fit what they want to do around the work that they deliver. I think that that really helps too. Being able to go for that run, because you know that you have the the ability to work afterwards. Sorry Emmy. Zoe Amar 47:23 I know Emmy's got to go off and do the school run in a moment. Sorry, go for it! Emmy O'Shaughnessy 47:27 No that's alright, I was just saying, actually when Mike was describing parents coming home from working, I was like wanting to hide under my thing. And I think it's like really important to say that we've got you know- I personally have got a way to go. I've done a good- a good piece of work on myself in terms of just learning my own language of what it means to have fun in my life and with the people that I love and care about. And it's- I feel like we're quite early in that journey in my organisation. But I do know that joy is something that has always been really important throughout my work with communities. And, you know, theatre applied theatre was an amazing mechanism, because the ways that you build theatre together was just pure play, loads and loads of games, lots of stepping outside of roles, experimentation, failing safely, improvising. You know, all of those ingredients, that I think are really important to having fun, which I would love to bring more into my- into the role that I do now. But I think in terms of- in terms of tips, I do think it's- a starting place is to be able to make it familiar- a familiar conversation to be having, like a dialogue. I think that's what you were- you were saying Mike earlier, just kind of inviting dialogue. And then at leadership level, and this is where, you know, we absolutely have work to do in my organisation, because we're a frontline organisation. And young people have had such a tough two years and the need for our charity to- to meet those- meet those young people where they're at has been really full on and lots of people across the sector are knackered and burnt out. And it feels like a big change is needed from leaders in the third sector to say actually, like, "we're not gonna be martyrs about what our- in how we work and how we carry out our roles. We are really gonna stand in this value of protecting time for leisure, breaks, human connection - that's all really important just because it's important, not for any other reason". But I also was gonna say that, I think the flexible hours approach is really important because people you know might have a class that they can go to in the week- in the weekday at lunchtime because they have kids in the evening and they can't get childcare. So if work can support them to go and do a class, or pick up a hobby that's at a different time that enables them to go, that's awesome. And I think that's really conducive to people maintaining, like a better work life balance in general. But the thing that's come back over and over again, when we've run feedback with the staff team is the time. It's like, we just want time to be together. And when I've asked various people what their definition of fun is, in my team, everyone has connected it to spontaneity, right? The kind of idea around spontaneous moments of human connection. It's always about relationships. And it's always about like, not forced fun, but just how we build that sense of like a relaxed state where we can have spontaneous moments of lightness and humour. I remember last year, when my son was- he had to come into work with me, and I had meetings and my team were amazing. They were hanging out with him. And I just stopped my meeting early and said, "let's all go to the park", we have a big park outside, I was like, "does anyone want to come?", the whole- [Laughs] just came out with me. Everyone was just running around the playground. You know, I wasn't like, "my child is coming in today. And we're all gonna go to the playground together and go down the slide". It was just in that moment, I looked around, and I thought 'they're being awesome with my son. It's a beautiful day, why don't we just step out. Anyone's welcome'. And it's just like, immediately that spontaneity, and that invitation, gives people that permission just to like, let go, and go into the flow of it. So I thought that was a good memory of like, we had lots of fun. It was not planned. But it was also absolutely about us being together and- and being empathetic about the different needs that were going on for my son, me being a working mom, my team being distracted. [Laughs] Like, just drop all of it, and go and run around. Michael Rucker 51:53 That's the best. I love that. [Laughs] Paul Thomas 51:57 That's a great idea. Great idea. Well look, thank you! I think that we need to wrap up because, you know, we have school runs to get to, but thank you for that. I think, just to hear different words, you know, we've talked about fun, we've talked about laughter, we've talked about joy, all of these things are things that people might find easier to connect with sometimes than 'fun'; fun work doesn't necessarily go hand in hand, but I really connect with that idea, today of joy. If what you're doing doesn't bring joy, eventually, then, you know, perhaps it's time to- to have a look elsewhere and think about other things. But thank you very much. I think the top tip I'd take away for leaders is that time, it's giving people time. And not- not of wanting to go and then fill that time with anything specific. It's you know, it's fine sometimes to just bring in some coffee and cake and then just say sit and chat to each other and chill or go to the park as Emmy's just experienced. So thank you very much for for coming on. Mike, when's your book out? Michael Rucker 52:59 In the UK, it's the end of January. In the US, it's January 3rd. Paul Thomas 53:03 So what we will try and do around the time is remember that it's out and do a competition so that people can get hold of a copy of it. I'm sure there's four new customers- or three new customers, sorry, on this - I can't do the maths - three new customers on this call. So you'll- you'll have at least three copies sold in the UK- Michael Rucker 53:22 Ah, thank you so much. Emmy O'Shaughnessy 53:23 Definitely. Paul Thomas 53:23 -and to some more. Zoe Amar 53:25 Thank you so much to Emmy and Michael for joining us. I learned lots from that episode, and I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks of it too. Paul Thomas 53:33 And Zoe do we need to book an away day at the fun location in Hartfordshire? I can think of quite a few without having to go anywhere near an escape room. Zoe Amar 53:45 Well you can come over to my house and I'll make some cake and a nice lunch like I normally do. That for me is fun. I hope it's fun for you sometimes. Paul Thomas 53:54 [Laughs] It's massively fun. And I think the- the point you made just before the interview, you said about being an introvert and I think I've been exploring where I sit on that scale recently, and I think it's that- that exact same thing. I think a- good company, cooking, listening to music, geeking out, all of that stuff is exceptionally fun to me. So I think we're very much in the same boat. Thank you very much for listening to this episode. You can find us on Twitter, we're at @startsatthetop1 and you can also email us at startsatthetop@gmail.com. Zoe Amar 54:31 And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or anywhere else where you get your podcasts, please do take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It all helps with our visibility and reach. And we'll speak to you again in a couple of weeks. Paul Thomas 54:45 Speak to you soon. Zoe Amar 54:47 Bye! Transcribed by https://otter.ai