Tree Hall  0:02  
A work in progress, I think would be how I feel now. There's a real liberation in understanding that the way I perceive the world and I engage with it isn't faulty or broken. It's just different.

Paul Thomas  0:18  
Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top, our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul Thomas.

Zoe Amar  0:25  
And I'm Zoe Amar. On today's episode, we have a big treat for you. Our conversation with Tree Hall who is the CEO of charity IT leaders.

Paul Thomas  0:35  
However, it's not Trees passion for supporting charities and nonprofits and getting the best from their tech that we talked to Tree about. Tree is also openly and proudly autistic, having been diagnosed at the age of 47. It is this diagnosis, and Trees experience of being a neurodivergent leader that we tap into on this episode. And her openness and honesty on the subject makes for such warmly compelling listen.

Zoe Amar  0:58  
It was such a great conversation. Tree is an inspiration and we loved every minute of our conversation with her.

Paul Thomas  1:06  
And, Tree is a fellow Arsenal fan, which makes this episode even better. And to 10% on top. It was a cold week and I wore my Arsenal scarf on several zoom calls that week, I think I'll do that more often because it's a great icebreaker and she came out as a fellow Arsenal fan. So welcome to Tree. But Zoe, it's February the weather is warming up. The scarf is coming off. daylight hours are getting longer. We got through January, woohoo! How was it for you?

Zoe Amar  1:33  
No bad actually, very busy looking ahead to an exciting 2023/2024. So yeah, not too bad so far. How about you?

Paul Thomas  1:43  
It did get cold there for a while didn't it. I didn't think the ice would ever disappear. We had snow in December so I'm kind of pleased to see the sun out. And me and my 11 year old on the walk to school checking out the signs of spring, there are snow drops, there are daffodils coming up through the grass. So it's it's all good. We're getting there. And we've been discussing a couple of stories behind the scenes. Zoe there's been a number of articles online about over 50s in the workplace. And we believe there's probably a role for leaders to play in making sure that this demographic doesn't get neglected, especially when it comes to digital.

Zoe Amar  2:24  
100%. So, we're recording today, on a Monday, after Jeremy Hunt announced on Friday that there were almost 300,000 fewer people in jobs than before the pandemic. He's encouraging people who retired early after the pandemic who are in those older demographics to come back to the office. And this article from the BBC, which we will post in the show notes, talks about what's really going on there behind the scenes. So how there are still challenges with people who are in older demographics being hired by organisations. And obviously that is perhaps a bit of a challenge in digital because do you think we have a cult of youth in digital Paul is what I'm trying to say here?

Paul Thomas  3:14  
Well, talking for somebody that is, you know, not quite there yet, but will be on the way to that, that that demographic. Yeah, probably we do. I think about the most of the organisations I work with, and when I'm introduced to teams, they are in a lot of cases much younger, especially on the delivery side, when it comes to things like social media management and oversight and things like that. There's definitely a younger demographic at play. So yeah, perhaps we are and I think that's probably borne out by the channels and an increasingly difficult place, social media in particular for the over 50s to play in. You know, Facebook's getting a bad rep for being the place where your mum and dad are. And if you are like us the mums and dads you know. Yeah, I think it is probably a tricky playground for for those people that are getting on in age a bit. What do you think?

Zoe Amar  4:20  
It's the number one thing I hear a lot when I go into organisations actually people say, oh, I am too old to do this. And I was countered that by saying anyone can do digital at any age. And what we do need I think to really make digital sustainable in the long term is sure we need the 25 year olds who are amazing at TikTok, and we need the older people who are seasoned they've been in the workplace for ages, they're brilliant at managing risk. We need both of those groups. We need them to come together, we need them to work together and we need them to recognise each other's value. And I do think that in this wider move of getting older people back into the workplace, we need to acknowledge that, particularly because it speaks to some of the things we're going to be talking about in the next news story, which is around working from home versus working in the office.

Paul Thomas  5:13  
Yeah. And I think, you know, going back to the teams that we've we've all worked with, I think what I've really valued from the young people in the team is the, the ideas, you know, this is how I use TikTok in my personal life. And could we do something similar with, with the with the business or charity you're working with so lots of ideas coming through, and that is really, really helpful, because those are some things, some things that you just don't spot, because maybe you're not using these channels as widely as they are. But I think the one thing that you can't replace easily with youth, is that sort of more strategic long term view, and often it's the sort of the Okay, yeah, that's a great idea, but how are we going to put that in the mix with all of these other things that we need to do. And also a lot of organisations I think, miss the fact that the over 50s is a huge demographic, in terms of their audience, whether it's for fundraising, whether it's for, you know, you might be working for an up and coming tech firm, but if the vast majority of your audience is shared between a range of demographics, including older people who do still need to use these tools and use this technology, then having people that understand and have empathy with that that demographic, in your mix in your in your team, is probably well worth having. So I think it's always going to be a balance, but I think it's it's probably one that most organisations probably have work to do on, we focused on other areas of diversity, and inclusion, but perhaps this is another one that needs to be added into the mix.

Zoe Amar  5:13  
Yeah, and I think one thing that employers will need to be aware of, especially in a digital context is that 50 now does look very different doesn't say, I mean, I know people who are coming up to 50, who've got really small children, and I know people in their 50s who are on their second marriages and having a second wave of have children. You know and people going off to work in startups, I was reading about a startup, a tech startup at the weekend, where they've got people in their 50s and 60s, as well as younger employees. So I think, I think that any initiative, whether it's government led, or within any organisation, where you are actively trying to get older people into the workplace has got to be based on that understanding of what those older demographics look like, and what they need and how it might be very different, even 10 years previously.

Paul Thomas  7:41  
Exactly, exactly. And you know, I'll bang that drum, I am a big kid at heart. You know, when I think about where my parents were, perhaps at 50, and where I will be, yeah, didn't see my dad playing on the Xbox too often, there are tropes of tropes of my younger self that I will never give up, never give up art all. And the second story we wanted to talk about was, as you mentioned, you know, this this age old issue of... every time you send something through about this, my blood boils. And I think, oh, here we go another, possibly, you know, possibly misdirected person talking about the role of the office. But this was a response to a tweet you put out about Tony Dunk, who's Director General of the CBI and about comments he made about CEOs that he was talking to wanting to see employees back in offices.

Zoe Amar  8:36  
Exactly. Yeah. And I tweeted this as a bit of a throwaway thing just resharing the story and got a real range of responses back. So essentially, Tony Dunk was saying that bosses secretly want all of their staff to return to work in offices. And I put this out there on Twitter, just trying to canvass of opinion from charities to find out, is this not the case in charities because I'm largely hearing that flexible working has really embedded across the sector, not everywhere, but in quite a few places, or whether there are indeed, some charities who are focusing more on gradually going back more to the office. And I got some really mixed responses, all of them interesting all of them useful. Some organisations that have totally gone remote, some who are getting really comfortable with hybrid now and then others where people want to go back to the office, they're enjoying it, they need to be with other people, or they have to because of the nature of their online roles. So again, I think this takes us back to, there isn't a cookie cutter approach to this stuff. It's different for everyone. It depends on your organization's needs. It depends on your employees, individual needs, what isn't helpful are people like Tony Dunk rocking up and saying, look, it's got to be like this, and this is the best way to do it.

Paul Thomas  9:54  
Yeah, It does smack of he's had a couple of conversations with a couple of leaders who said it would be nice, he's making a general sweeping statement that doesn't seem to be the reality for the people that we're necessarily coming in, in touch with. And I think one comment in particular stood out for me on your on your thread, which was that Nicola Upton

Zoe Amar  10:15  
yeah Nicola

Paul Thomas  10:16  
Nicola Upton who came back to you and said that she talks of it as I think of it as human centred flexible working and I think going back to the story we've just been discussing, everybody has different needs at different times in their lives and this opportunity that we have. And I think we have to look at it as an opportunity after COVID and after everything sort of shifted on its axis. It's an opportunity to reinvent the world of work and there seems to be a great big proportion of people who don't want to reinvent work, want work to be the same way that it's always been. And I like this idea of making it human centred, so that you think about the individual and their role, the way that they want to be the balance between their home life and their work life, how they fit other things around, there was an example with the the over 50s, for example, around caring for elderly, elderly, relatives, elderly parents, and things like that. How do you fit all this into the world of work, it certainly doesn't work if your world looks like getting on a train at seven o'clock in the morning to get to London or another big city, working from nine to five, Monday to Friday and getting back to that that sort of old way of working. Perhaps this is a sort of a world of people that just you know, are hanging on by their fingertips to their offices, they want that corner office, as we discussed, you know, the, the Mad Men style, you know, this is the way I've built my career, and I've got up to the corner office, and I'm going to hang on to it with everything I've got, perhaps that's what we're looking at, as you said, people in leadership positions like this coming out with sort of sweeping generalisations without having done a simple piece of research, which you've done through your tweet. Doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Zoe Amar  10:19  
Yeah, I think you're exactly right about that. And we'll put the link to my tweet in the show notes just so you can see the variety of things people are doing, and how they're responding. And big shout out to Nicola, do keep an eye on what she's saying about this stuff. I interviewed her for a third sector piece, I think it was last year who she was saying some really interesting things about continuously adapting hybrid working for different people on the team depending on their needs and how she was doing that was fascinating. So keep an eye on her. She is fantastic.

Paul Thomas  12:36  
Right? And one person who had a really clear view on certain elements of remote working and how that was useful to her was Tree Hall, who will now go to our interview with, with Tree.

Zoe Amar  12:49  
We are very excited to welcome Tree Hall to Starts at the Top. Tree Hall is CEO a charity IT leaders and is passionate about supporting charities and not for profits in leveraging the best from their tech, IT and digital, and putting people at the heart of it. She's also openly and proudly autistic, and was diagnosed at the age of 47. Both of her children are autistic, which can make work and home a difficult balancing act. As she explores what Autism means to her, and how autism has shaped her life. She is committed to increasing knowledge and understanding of autism and other neurodivergets. And making the workplace a more welcoming and supportive place taught neurodivergent individuals. Tree, thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome to Starts at the Top.

Tree Hall  13:48  
Thank you. Great to be here, Zoe & Paul, thank you for inviting me.

Zoe Amar  13:52  
So we're so happy to have you here. And one of the reasons I am absolutely delighted to have you as a guest here today is having known you for some years and always enjoyed our conversations, I feel like there's an emerging strand what you're doing where you're a CEO, as well as an activist, and you've obviously been sharing these fantastic, really insightful posts on LinkedIn and you've talked very openly about your experience as a leader with autism, just about your journey. And I think they've been really eye opening and so helpful for lots of people. So I was wondering if we could start there if we could hear a bit more about your story and how that began for you.

Tree Hall  14:37  
Yeah, thank you. That's really kind of you to say that Zoe. I think my journey in terms of neurodivergent started with my children, I'm like an awful lot of adults in that my personal autism diagnosis came very late in life. Both of my children are autistic and they are experiencing quite significant challenges through education as a result of their autism and the supports that they need. But it was through finding out about how autism presents for them, and what tend to be called male presentations and female presentations of autism, that I started to think that I might be autistic. And I mean, I've done a lot of reading about this. The reason I laugh about this is because when I first talked to my husband about it, I said to him that I thought I might be autistic, and was expecting him to say, no, well, you're just seeing autism everywhere, because you've been reading about it. So I spoke to him about it and said, I think I might be, you know, there are all these traits and kind of things that are resonating. And he just looked at me and said, Well, yeah, of course you are. And he'd obviously picked up on that, I was completely taken aback and asked him why he hadn't said anything. And he said, but it doesn't matter. It's just you, it's just autism, which was lovely to hear. But then when he went on and said, it's just labels and boxes, but you know, me, I love labels. And that's, that's something for me, which I think is an autistic trait that I need, I need definitions, I need those labels, I find them very helpful, because they helped me to understand me, and how I interact with the world, and how that interaction can be different for people whose brains don't work in the way that mine does. And I think of it as a different operating system. So that's really where I've, where I've come at this from is from the perspective of firstly, as a parent of autistic children, but now also as knowing that I'm an autistic adult as well. And I see the challenges that my children are going through, I can recall very clearly how difficult I found school and social interactions. And I just want to do my bit, I suppose to try and be visibly autistic in the workplace. But to try and make life a bit easier for the people who are coming up, you know who are younger than me, you know the generations following me.

Zoe Amar  17:09  
And that's why I think it's so exciting about the activism side of things that you're out there doing, if I can call it that, because you're really owning it, and owning it really proudly, and that feels really liberating.

Tree Hall  17:22  
It is liberating, I suppose what I'm doing almost is, I'm unpeeling, my 47 years of masking and the layers that I've built up, before I realised I was autistic. And the way that I sort of tried to create a persona that felt normal in inverted commas and that felt as if it was a persona that other people could engage with. I'm peeling those onion layers back. And it feels in a way quite helpful to do that publicly. Because, as I said earlier, lots of adults who are autistic are not diagnosed, or are only starting their journey to considering diagnosis. And I think seeing how other people have dealt with that can be quite helpful and reassuring because there's so much misinformation about autism, there are still so many negative perceptions about what it means to be autistic, that that diagnosis or that realisation that you might be autistic can be quite frightening. And in some ways, it is because there are all of those, those different bits of baggage that come with it potentially. But actually, I found it to be the most positive thing that's happened to me is realising that I'm autistic and getting that diagnosis. And it's been a huge, a huge weight off my shoulders, really. And it's changed the way that I look back on my life and the way that I see myself. And I don't see a series of deficits and negatives in the same way that I did. I just see a difference now. And that's hugely empowering.

Zoe Amar  19:01  
And that's really exciting in itself isn't it I mean how do you feel now?

Tree Hall  19:06  
Um, a work in progress, I think would be how I feel now. There's a real liberation in understanding that the way I perceive the world and I engage with it isn't faulty or broken. It's just different. And there's a real liberation in being able to look after myself better because I understand why I'm motivated or need to do certain things. So a really clear example of that, for me is in social situations, even with groups of people that I love dearly that I know very well that I'm comfortable with. If I'm at, say, a party with them, there will come a point in that party where I just need to go off for half an hour and be by myself. And throughout my life, I'd felt like somehow that was really wrong. Why would I not want to be in that space with those people all the time, why did I need to go off and have this alone time and it has to be alone, I have to be on my own. And it was only with understanding more about myself and how autism presents for me that I realised I just get overloaded. And I get overloaded with the sensory input, I get overloaded with the conversations. I know it's a bit of an autistic trope, but I get overloaded with eye contact as well. Eye contact for me is something that is physically painful. It hurts to make eye contact, not here on a screen, because there's a screen between us. But if I was in a meeting, or in a conversation, an awful lot of my focus and attention is on am I making enough eye contact? Am I making the right kind of eye contact? Am I staring? Am I somehow making people feel uncomfortable, because I'm making too much eye contact, and things like that are exhausting. So I just reach a point in social situations where I need to take a break from that and be able to go off, reset, just have a bit of time where I can clear my head of all of that. And then I'm happy to go back. But the difference for me now is that I understand why I need to do that. And it's okay. So I give myself permission to do that. And it's much healthier for me, much healthier.

Paul Thomas  21:26  
Instead you felt, you feel now that you know you're not broken, you're not faulty. Previously, before your diagnosis, is it that same sense of I don't quite know why these things, why I feel this way why these things are happening to me and just dealing with those, it's been a liberation of sorts.

Tree Hall  21:46  
It's yeah, it's definitely been a liberation. I mean, that's, that's the only word I can think of really, I recall very clearly from childhood and school feeling slightly like the odd one out, and I could never quite work out why. And you know, I am 47 I'll be 48 In a few weeks. I'm not, I'm very open about my age as well, maybe that's an autistic thing. I just don't have filters in that sense. But I remember clearly from childhood, that I was academically very able, I loved schoolwork, I loved learning and getting good marks. It was again physically painful to think about breaking the rules and not being well behaved. And there's, you know, there's a lot of stigma that comes with that in the classroom. So I got an awful lot of labels, like teachers, pets, that sort of thing. And I just never quite felt that I was part of the group in the way that other people were. And not knowing why that was, as a child, you tend to internalise that and think that it's somehow you, it's your fault. And that feeling never went away as I grew up, became a teenager became a young adult became an adult and so on. There was just always this feeling of everybody else is doing it and gets it so why can't I? And you do tend to blame yourself for that and think that it's you that's at fault somehow. And being able to recognise those traits in myself as just being part of the way my brain works, it's enabled me to forgive myself. And that may sound really silly, because why on earth would you blame yourself for the way that you you are in the world, but when everybody else seems to be part of something, and they get all the unwritten and the unspoken communications and, and all of this sort of implied contracts in the way that people engage with each other. When you don't understand that and you feel outside of it, and yet everyone else seems to get it, you do blame yourself. And I think that's something that I've found in conversation with other late diagnosed Autistics. That is, that's a real commonality that we do tend to blame ourselves. And we do tend to put that pressure and onus for fitting in onto ourselves. And when we can't do that, it must be something to do with us. So that feeling of deficiency, and always having to try and compensate for it, and work harder to fit in and achieve and to appear normal, whatever normal is. That's a huge pressure and it's exhausting. And I think it's why so many adult autistics go through periods of autistic breakdown, which can be exhausting and just destroying socially, mentally, physically. It that kind of a total overwhelm and overload of years of trying to fit in and mask. Suddenly, you just reach a point where you don't have the capacity to do that anymore. And that's that's really hard to see people go through that.

Paul Thomas  25:01  
I mean, obviously, you've got you've got two children and your husband, did they you know sort of identift that in you or seem to identify that? And does it make it easier for you to identify it in other people? Can you start to see those traits coming through? Is it sort of able to give you a warning sign, or not a warning sign, Does it sort of, yeah just help you to help others that might be feeling in the same way? Is it easier to spot?

Tree Hall  25:28  
I certainly think, I think Autistics... again, I mean, there's, there's a kind of a bit of a truism about autism that if you've met one autistic, you've met one autistic. You know, there are traits and personality types that you see more consistently in autistic communities. But we are all different. And we all have different ways of being, and feeling and processing. But there are certain things that now that I understand more about autism, I do see in other people, and I just think, yeah, I think you might be autistic. But I would never say that to anybody, unless they came and talked to me about autism and said that they were, you know, questioning that about themselves? Because I think if you're not, if you're not in that headspace of wondering, then for somebody to just say, Well I think you might be, that could be really, you know, kind of disabling in a way because it almost pulls the rug of your reality and your place in the world out from underneath you. So I do see it, I think, I think I probably communicate more naturally and easily with other autistic or neurodivergent adults, because we, you know, we do have a more communal way of engaging and seeing and perceiving. So I do, yeah, I do see it. And I think the prevalence of autism is considerably higher than we realise. There's a hugely high level of under diagnosis in people of my age group. And I think that's because, you know, obviously, in the sort of decades since I was at school, the knowledge and understanding about autism has increased. And so it is easier now for people to get a diagnosis in childhood, easier than it was, still not easy by any stretch of the imagination. But I think there were a lot of people like me, particularly girls who were missed, and who weren't diagnosed. And that, unfortunately, girls still tend to have a higher level of under diagnosis than boys do. There is a perception of autism, which is about that what's called a male presentation. And I don't like using terms like male and female because I don't like genderising things like that. But there is, the current diagnostics tend to look for the way that more boys present than girls present. And very often, when girls are diagnosed as autistic, it tends to happen in their teens, it tends to happen when they go to secondary school, and it becomes harder to mask and to pretend and to fit in. Girls are far better at mimicking social interaction than boys are. So I was a kind of, if you like typical autistic female at school, in that I was bright, I was well behaved I fitted in, there was no concern about me from an academic perspective. I was probably quieter than most of my peers. I was slightly on the outside of the friendship groups. But there were no real red flags, there was nothing that anybody would have have looked at and said, We need to be supporting this child. And, sadly, although things have got better in terms of autistic diagnosis, that is still very much the case for girls at school today is that they tend to be overlooked in in that recognition that they might need support and help. I feel like I'm pinballing all over the conversations here, pull me back in if I'm disappearing off down a rabbit hole as I am one to do.

Zoe Amar  29:15  
Pinballing is brilliant. And that's what these conversations are all about. And if we wind forward into the present day and your experience as a neurodivergent leader, what's that been like for you? Tough?

Tree Hall  29:32  
That's a really difficult question for me to answer in a way because I think I've always been a neurodivergent leader. It's not that I suddenly become autistic. I have always been autistic. The differences that for the last, I mean, I suppose I started to question about two years ago, whether I was autistic, I got the diagnosis at the beginning of last year. So it's only in the last couple of years that I've known that I'm a neurodivergent leader. The thing that is really different for me now is that I can understand why I've struggled at work at certain times. And again, I've not had a kind of chequered career history by any stretch of the imagination. I've always done very well at work, I've never had difficulties getting on with people, or certainly not on the surface. Forging those deeper relationships at work, being able to function in busy open plan, offices, all of those things that you have to do in the workplace. I've struggled with those, but I've internalised those struggles very much. Because, again, it's like being at school, you don't want to stand out from the crowd. Everybody else is getting along with this and thriving in open plan and noise and people bring you lunch into the desks and all that sort of thing. You just you don't want to stand out from the crowd and make a fuss about that. So the difference for me now is knowing what I know about myself knowing the things that I found particularly different and difficult throughout work. And so I just want to be able to verbalise those difficulties so that people who are perhaps having challenges in those areas recognise that it's okay for that to be difficult. Equally on the flip side of that, I want people who are neurotypical to understand how disabling some of those challenges can be, and to start thinking about how to create workplaces which are more inclusive and supportive for neurodivergent individuals. And it's probably worth saying actually, that neurodivergence is is a really broad umbrella term. And it can include, obviously, autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia sensory processing disorder, executive dysfunction, as you know, there's there's a whole gamut of different neurological conditions, if you like, that fall under that umbrella that can make it very difficult for people to thrive in the environments that most people find it perfectly okay to work in. So I hated open plan offices hated them, because they were so noisy, people could come up and talk to me from all different directions. And I found that really hard to work with, people would sit at their desk and eat lunch, and the smells from that would be really distracting. I think now it's, it's seen as more acceptable to be able to wear headphones at work or, or earbuds or whatever. And so you can block out some of the noise. But those really open workplaces, and we do seem to have a lot of open plan workplaces now, are not great for neurodivergent individuals. So making some changes, is really helpful. Having quiet spaces where people can go and work being really open about the fact that if you need to put headphones on or sit with your earbuds in, that's okay, encouraging people to not eat at their desk, which let's be honest, none of us should be doing because we should all be going and taking a proper break away from our laptops and what have you. But just being aware of those things and open to them. And if somebody comes to you and says I'm struggling, I need this accommodation, believe them. That's a really key thing as a leader is you just have to believe people and not be asking necessarily for proof because a lot of autistic adults are self diagnosed. That's another challenge that that we face. The route to diagnosis as an adult can be years long. And services in the UK for autistic adults are at a massive stretch, incredibly under resourced for the number of people needing to access them. So a lot of the time, autistic adults are having to kind of navigate their own way through a try and understand themselves and the challenges that they face and find solutions for themselves. And I think that's one of the reasons why so few autistic adults are actually in work. The most recent statistics say that 22% of autistic adults are employed 22% I mean, that's, that's, that's incredibly low. And yet, we, as a community of people, we have a huge amount to offer. And that diversity of thought in the workplace is so so important for finding solutions to things, finding creative ways forward and just for having higher performing better performing teams. So yeah, again, I feel like I've sort of wandered around your your question I hope I've answered what what you were actually asking.

Zoe Amar  34:50  
That's so important Tree that you've raised that and that was not a wonder I think that it's vitally important to get this issue on employers radars because 22%, I mean, there's swathes of talented people who have these incredible insights and most importantly, different perspectives to share to enrich the workplace. And the outcomes that we should all be working towards. Employees are really missing out there aren't they.

Tree Hall  35:16  
I think so.

Paul Thomas  35:21  
Just add to that, you said earlier on about, you know, it's a different operating system. That's what you feel that you have. And that's what can be brought to the table. And as Zoe says, that's, you know, all the organisations, all the leaders, we've talked about diversity of thought and diversity, inclusion, all those sorts of things. That's what they're looking for, it's who can bring a different perspective to this, who can bring a different operating system, who's got those those skills that we need, and there's, there's a group of people there, huge group of people there, that could bring that perspective and could bring that insight and can bring that real lived experience.

Tree Hall  36:00  
There is, but I have to be honest, if you as an employer, want to create a workplace, which is supportive and inclusive and accessible for neurodivergent individuals, there is a bit of effort needed on your part, you know, because some of those changes have got to be made, and they require cultural change. And I think that's, that's something that ties in with our society's attitude broadly to disability, there seems to be almost a reluctance to talk about disability, whether that's physical, or whether it's the disability that comes from being neurodivergent. And actually, that conversation is made even harder, because if you take the Autistic community, for instance, there's a huge range of thought about whether or not autism is a disability, and whether being autistic means you are disabled. Now, my view on this has changed quite considerably from when I was first diagnosed, I was really, really vehement almost that I was not disabled because of autism. And yet there are other people who are equally vehement that they are disabled by autism. As I say, my perspective on this has changed. I think it depends whether you subscribe to a medical model of autism, or whether you subscribe to a social model of autism, the medical model is based around deficit, and it's based around disorder, you know, it's ASD, Autistic Spectrum Disorder, I don't think I'm disordered. I don't think I need to be cured, I don't think I don't want to a treatment for autism. And even saying that, that is coming from a place of privilege, because the way that autism impacts me, doesn't prevent me from living independently having a job. Having children having a family, there are people for whom autism has a much more profound impact on their lives, and they're not able to live independently, they're not able to work, they might never have a family or those kinds of intimate relationships. So I think we have to be respectful of the fact that people's lived experience of autism and neurodivergence is different. We engage with it differently, it impacts us differently. And we have to be open about having those conversations that you know, while I hate functioning labels (so functioning labels are where we talk about high functioning Autistics or low functioning Autistics), I would be classed as a high functioning autistic, because I've got a senior job, I've got a house, I've got a family, I live independently, I'm married, you know, to all intents and purposes, I function at a high level. Then you've got what are called Low Functioning Autistics, and that's people who perhaps need 24 hour care who are never going to be an employment who might never have an intimate relationship, as I said, but those labels are incredibly damaging, because as soon as you label someone as low functioning, you immediately invalidate and undermine the skills and qualities and strengths that they have. As soon as you label me high functioning, you are ignoring all the challenges that I face in life and the difficulties that I have to go through. You know, we have to move away from that language, because it's incredibly damaging to the entire community. And I forgotten where I was going with that now. This is sorry, this is an autistic trait of mine is that I'll get so passionate into a line of conversation that I forget where I was actually going with it. I think I was talking about disability and society. That's right and in the workplace, the effort that's needed by employers to make our work places more accessible. So I think we have to recognise that as neurodivergent adults, we do need certain supports, accommodations, we need certain changes in the workplace to enable us to thrive. So we don't come without our own baggage. But as a resource, yes, you know, many of us are highly skilled, got really creative ways of thinking and seeing and doing. And just being part of a more diverse team means that we can create something richer, you know, and come up with problems from a new perspective. So, with that in mind, something that I did want to talk about is as a neurodivergent, adult in the workplace, something that I think employers really need to be aware of is that if you have a neurodivergent employee, and they have children, the chances are pretty high, that one or more of those children will also be neurodivergent. And that means a real challenge potentially, for managing work and life and achieving that balance. I'm quite happy to be open about the difficulties that my children face. I've got one my youngest is not in school, and hasn't been for 15 months. A local authority have said that he requires specialist provision to support his particular challenges. But there aren't sufficient places. So we are now having to consider whether we go down the court route and take the local authority to tribunal to try and get our child an education. Our eldest is also struggling, because mainstream education for them is hugely overwhelming. They have difficulty getting into school each day, got different support needs to my youngest, but for me, that means that frequently, my children are here at home when I'm trying to work, or I'm trying to get them to appointments. My youngest has now started what's called Esma provision, which is for children who are medically unable to attend school, whether that's emotionally or physically, he has to be dropped to those lessons three times a week. And that's two hours of lessons, it takes about 40 minutes each way to get him there. That's a huge amount of time out of my working week. And being able to juggle that and be in work. I mean, I am just so fortunate that my employers, that charity IT leaders are incredibly supportive. And they allow me to have that flexibility of my working hours to be able to do that and support my family. Lots of employers can't or don't offer that degree of flexibility. But there just needs to be an understanding that as a neurodivergent adult who's a parent, you might have that going on in the background. And that's, that's hard, that's really hard to juggle.

Paul Thomas  43:04  
And as you say, you get that support from your employer is there, is there a, you know, a set of resources or something that we can direct people employees to who are in that situation to maybe go off and have a look at?

Tree Hall  43:19  
Absolutely, I mean, the first organisation that comes to mind, and there are many wonderful organisations offering support in this area, so apologies that I can't mention them all. But definitely, if you are an employer that wants to look at increasing accessibility for Neurodivergence in your workplace, go and have a look at Ambitious About Autism, they are doing phenomenal work in this area. They have a brilliant set of resources for employers, which will help you make really, actually quite straightforward changes to things like your recruitment processes, which make them much more accessible for autistic adults or people with ADHD or various other different forms of neuro divergence. And actually, recruitment is a really good example of where the tweaks that you can make to the process that will help say, an autistic adult, actually will enable all candidates to deliver a better interview. And I think that's maybe something that people don't realise about the accommodations that you can make for neurodivergent adults is that very often, they're things that will benefit your entire workforce, not just the neurodivergent members of your your team. And if we can create an environment that supports neurodivergent adults, but also helps other members of the team to thrive and flourish, that feels to me like a really positive place to be. So definitely go and have a look at Ambitious About Autism. If you want to just find out more about, say autism, generally, National Autistic Society. There's a very particular profile of Autism, which we have in our family, which is PDA, pathological demand avoidance. I don't like the term, I have issue with quite a lot of the terminology around neuro divergence. But PDA requires a very specific type of support. And again, PDA society is doing wonderful work in in that area. But if you are an autistic adult looking either for support for yourself or a family member or loved one, there are an absolute plethora of fantastic small local organisations as well that can plug you into support groups and training courses and so on locally. So just get out there and do a bit of googling. There's there's a lot of support out there. And I think one thing I found is that the neurodivergent community is incredibly supportive and helpful. So Facebook, if you're on Facebook, or not, came off that because I just couldn't cope with the overload of it. But there are wonderful groups on there. LinkedIn has a very supportive community as well. And if people want to find out more about particular groups on LinkedIn, I'm very happy, just you know, send me a message. I'm quite easy to find. There's not many Tree Hall's on LinkedIn. So yeah, just ping me a message. And I'd be happy to signpost people to different different places, but certainly, in terms of charities, Ambitious About Autism, PDA society, and National Autistic Society will be three great starting points for people.

Zoe Amar  46:32  
Those are such helpful resources. And thank you for sharing them. And we'll put links to them in in the show notes as well. Just to come back to this point about employers and hiring and you mentioned that if you improve things for people who are neurodivergent, you're actually improving this work for everyone as well. Can you give us some examples of that?

Tree Hall  46:54  
Yeah, absolutely. So on the recruitment side, and ambitious about autism employer pack makes this so easy to implement. Things that can prevent autistic people from applying for a role are ambiguity of language. So you need to be really specific in your job profiles, as an example, you know, in talking about things like must have good communication skills, or what does that actually mean? Some autistic people will be fantastic with written communications, but may struggle with spoken communications, be specific, tie it down, make it really clear what you're expecting. If you're thinking about the actual recruitment process, be aware that for a lot of autistic people coming into a new place can be really, really overwhelming. You don't know what it's gonna look like, you don't know what it's going to sound like you don't know how to get there. So include things in your recruitment pack, which could be a photo of the office, a picture of the room where the interview will happen, give people the option to be interviewed online. I was interviewed for my current role online, which was by necessity, because it was during lockdown. But I found that process much more accessible because it was more within my control, I was sitting in my own environment, I knew the environment, it just felt much safer. Let people know who the interviewers will be, again, if you can put a headshot and just a brief bio of who that person is and why they're going to be in the interview. It's about reducing the unknowns. Lots of neurodivergent adults will find it challenging to process questions that they're asked to interview when they're feeling anxious and a bit stressed anyway. And to be able to pull out the information in the question and then formulate and articulate a response. Give them the questions in advance. I mean, really, and truly, it's not going to adversely impact anybody in making the questions available. And by doing that you give people who are neurodivergent the opportunity to really read and understand the question and think about how that question relates to them. Equally, if you're neurotypical, having that question in advance, again, enables you to do that. So you're not you're not disadvantaging neurotypical applicants, by creating that openness and transparency and transparency. And the other things that can really help are being explicit in your organization's communications about the fact that you welcome neuro divergence and you welcome applicants from different backgrounds and who think and see and access the world in different ways. But you have to, you've got to walk that walk as well as talk that talk so, be really clear about it be clear that you are happy to make accommodations for people, if they feel comfortable to share them. Think about what you as an employer will say, if you're in an interview with someone, and they disclose that they're autistic, and ask what you do to support autistic adults in the workplace, how are you going to respond to that? Because it matters. And I know of a lot of autistic adults who've been in interviews, who've asked about diversity and inclusion, and who have left the interview because they felt so othered by the response. So think about what you're going to do to put people at ease and to really demonstrate your inclusive credentials. I mean, that, that's all focusing very much on the recruitment side. But hopefully, that gives you just an insight of some of the small changes that you can make, which will create a huge difference for autistic people.

Zoe Amar  51:00  
And those are such brilliant, clear practical steps as well, thank you for sharing them Tree.

Tree Hall  51:07  
Absolute pleasure.

Zoe Amar  51:08  
And they will be manageable.

Tree Hall  51:11  
I think they are, a lot of the changes and the support that we need is very manageable. The challenges that sometimes there's a perception of why is that person being treated differently. And you know, it's not fair, they're getting more than me. And I think it's really useful to keep remembering that diversity and inclusion is not about treating everybody the same. That's not inclusive, that's not equality. Equality is about giving everybody the same access and the same opportunity. So if I was in a wheelchair, I obviously wouldn't be able to get into a building unless there was a ramp. And that doesn't mean that I'm being given an unfair advantage. If there is a ramp provided, it just means I'm being given the where with all to have the same level of access as someone who's not in a wheelchair. And that's, that's the key, really, for me around equality and inclusion is that you don't look at what you can do to treat everybody the same. You have to look at what you do to give everybody the same opportunity. And that's quite a different thing. But I think sometimes people get a bit tied up in equality means the same and parity and it doesn't.

Paul Thomas  52:25  
Yeah, a lovely sentiment, I mean, we're sort of coming to the end of our conversation. Before Zoe came on online, I'm not feeling very well, today, I've got a scarf around my neck, it's an arsenal scarf and you mentioned that you and your family are Arsenal fans. You know, a few years ago, you might not have told me that, you might have kept that hidden from the world, not wanted to sort of explore that side of yourself. I recognise that side of things, but I just wondered what the experience and, have you been able to take your... both boys?

Tree Hall  53:00  
No, with a boy and nonbinary.

Paul Thomas  53:04  
Right. So have you been able to take them to, to games at all? Because I think the Arsenal have done a lot of work in this space. And they have a sensory room, I think where families with with autism and other other neurodivergent people can go and experience the game in a way that's safe and open for them. Have you, have you managed to go to games? And what's that experience like for, for your children and the family,

Tree Hall  53:35  
We have gone to a few games at Arsenal, not as many as I would ideally like. But you know, that's the compromise you make as a family. And we've also gone to games at Watford, which is our local club. Shout out to Laura Dawson there, big Watford fan. We've not done it in the context of using sensory rooms or the facilities that the clubs are making available, which is fantastic in terms of making sport more accessible, not just for neurodivergent families, but also for families where there's some kind of physical disability as well. The games can be really overwhelming for my kids, because it's not just about what happens in the stadium. It's also about what happens on the way to the stadium. So with the best efforts of the club's things like for Arsenal, having to get on a train and then the tube. That's very often a step too far for my children. I hope we might find ways to be able to get some more games in future. But I think for us, we as a family recognise that we all have different needs and abilities. And our abilities might change day to day or even sometimes hour to hour. So we have to be very flexible about what we will encourage our kids to do and what we will do as a family And that's another challenge that you face as neurodivergent adult with children is that you have to sort of change perhaps your expectations of what family time looks like. So for us, family time isn't always all four of us doing things together. It's one adult with one child doing something that that child can access, while the other adult is doing something different with the other child. But yeah, I mean, the football side, I'd love to get them to more games. I fear that neither of them are going to be as big an Arsenal fan as my husband and I but it's time, it's time to indoctrinate them into the Arsenal ways, and hopefully, fingers crossed that it doesn't all crash and burn now.

Zoe Amar  55:47  
Very good, we're also fulfilling one of Paul's aims here to ultimately make this a football podcast. So really good, really good to hear about and really interesting to hear about these experiences as well. And this has been such a fascinating discussion Tree. Thank you. And before you go, is there anything that you want to share with our listeners about charity IT leaders?

Tree Hall  56:09  
Oh, thank you. So that's really nice for you to give us space to do that. Just to say if you are a charity or a not for profit, and you want to do more with your IT, it doesn't matter if you don't have an IT team doesn't matter if you outsource, doesn't matter. If you're an office manager, that's also got responsibility for IT, come and find out about our community because there's a huge range of knowledge, wealth and support within the community. People are very, very happy to share and collaborate. And you know, we're here to help charities be more effective by getting more from that IT. So yeah, come and find out more. And we've got our annual conference, rescheduled from October because there was burst Watergate mark two it was it was really stressful. But we'll be in Oxford again, on February the eighth, ninth and tenth. So if you're a member, and you haven't booked a place, come along, if you're not a member, but you'd like to come we have got a limited number of non member places. So yeah, just come along to find out more, we'd love to welcome you.

Zoe Amar  57:14  
Fantastic. And we will include a link to charity IT leaders in the show notes as well. And thank you so much Tree for sharing your story here today. I'm sure it will inspire and educate many people. So thank you so much.

Paul Thomas  57:31  
Such an interesting conversation. Thank you.

Tree Hall  57:33  
It's been great talking with you both. Thank you for letting me disappear off down rabbit holes and talk to my heart's content. It's much appreciated and it's been lovely chatting with you both.

Zoe Amar  57:44  
Lovely. Thank you so much to tree for joining us on the podcast. What an inspiration she is.

Paul Thomas  57:51  
Yeah, tree was a fantastic guest so open. So thoughtful. I certainly learned a lot. And going back to our intro. I thought it was really interesting how she talked about the experience for someone with autism, of working through a screen and how helpful that could be in certain situations when she was talking about not being able to make eye contact with people, but a screen being a barrier to that and actually a useful barrier in that sense. I thought it was a really, really helpful and useful conversation. I hope our listeners did too. Until our next episode, you can find us on Twitter, we're at Starts at the Top1 and you can also email us at startsatthetop@gmail.com If you have any questions or insight or anything you'd like to share at all, please do get in touch with us through those channels.

Zoe Amar  58:37  
And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or anywhere else, you get your podcasts you can rate and review, please do, it all helps with our visibility and reach. And we'll speak to you again in a couple of weeks.

Paul Thomas  58:49  
Speak you soon. Bye

Zoe Amar  58:51  
Bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai