Sharon Jones: Just give it a go, just literally try it. There's
there's nothing wrong with failing, you learn from that.
You know sort of fail more, I think.
Paul Thomas: Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the
Top, our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul
Thomas.
Zoe Amar: And I'm Zoe Amar. On today's episode, we're sharing
our conversation with Sharon Jones, Head of Digital
Innovation at The King's Fund. Sharon has worked as an editor
and producer in organisations such as MTV, Sky, and among
others the BBC.
Paul Thomas: The BBC ay Zoe...it's been a quite quiet
weekend for them, hasn't it?
Zoe Amar: Uh yeah, uh quite quiet, I suppose it depends who
you speak to. But obviously, they have been all over the
press. I mean, most of our listeners will have seen the
Gary Lineker story. And in fact, we're recording on Monday the
13th, and it was announced earlier today that he's
returning to the BBC after being suspended from Match of the Day.
Most people know that was due to him tweeting, criticising the
language used by ministers, when discussing the government's
asylum policy. So you and I are both big advocates for use of
social media by leaders in and around organisations. So Paul,
what did you think of this story?
Paul Thomas: Just- just can't believe we're still talking
about this. Yeah. All these years later, I was just sort of
going through a few books earlier on and looking at The
Cluetrain Manifesto came out in 2000s. That's 23 years ago. A
book we know and love, you know Euan Semple 's, 'Organisations
Don't Tweet, People Do' came out in 2012. So we're quite far down
the line, and yet we're still having this conversation about
guidelines and what people can and can't say within and without
organisations and things. So it was a little bit depressing to
find ourselves back here. But- but a massive, massive story,
you know, and a real sort of sense of the BBC struggling
obviously with its decision making and the way it manages
its- its own policies against you know one of their biggest
stars in Gary Lineker, who, it's not unusual behaviour for him to
talk out on subjects that he's passionate about. He does it all
the time. And I think I'm right in saying that he's had some
sort of shots fired across the bow in- in past times, where he
said something that has been close to the bone, but this
time, because of government pressure, allegedly, it seems
that he's been forced out of his- out of his role, hosting
Match of the Day, which obviously, you know, other
listeners to this podcast will realise is a thing that's quite
close and dear to my heart as a football fan, who was faced with
about 35 minutes in total football highlights with no
commentators- no- no commentators, no pundits, no
presenters, which was completely counter to the experience,
because guess what, Match of the Day is delivered by a team, and
the team lost its captain, and they weren't happy about it.
Zoe Amar: Exactly. It makes you think how this kind of content
is so much driven by personalities, and indeed a lot
of other content is. I think this story is also a bit of a
reminder to organisations that they need to think about what is
workable and proportionate, realistic to put on their social
media guidelines. Because if you take the wrong tone, or you try
to be a bit too, all encompassing or the guidelines
are very widely drafted, and then people push back against
it, quite reasonably, then your guidelines won't have
credibility.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, no, I think you're right. And I think what
we've- we've heard today is that you know, Gary Lineker is
reinstated whilst they review the guidelines. Be interested to
know who's gonna go in and do that review of their social
media guidelines. Until then, he's going to apparently toe the
line, but he was straight onto Twitter again, to sort of
reiterate his position saying that, you know, although it's
been a hard couple of days, it's nothing compared to the
hardships faced by people seeking asylum on the shores. So
yeah, he's- he's maybe not going to be critical of the policy
itself, but he's certainly going to carry on with with giving his
opinion. And I think it is tough with organisations. I was just
thinking about the first social media policy I wrote, and I was
asked to sort of include a clause around political opinions
and political views. And I think that was- that was probably okay
when we first wrote the guidelines, probably back in
2010, 2012, it was probably just about okay. But we had to review
those on a regular basis. And I don't think it's good enough to
review them every couple of years with the speed that social
media moves at. And we had to sort of address that, because we
were finding that people that were in positions of leadership
within the organisation I worked for were still talking about
political opinions, and it's really hard to stop them from-
from doing that. So yeah, I think it'd be an interesting few
weeks for the BBC as they sort of navigate this, and hopefully
they can come out with something that's a bit more tailored to
the type of people that they have working for them as an
organisation.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely. I mean, it is a big question isn't it, in
fact two big questions, this one about: where does social justice
end and politics begin? Because one of the things I think we
both saw in the BBC social media guidelines is that they're
trying to bide people towards not getting involved in
campaigns. If not, I think there's even a line in those
guidelines saying, like 'don't get involved in virtue
signalling'. I mean, what does that even mean? Does that mean
you can't talk about '[black] lives matter', which is
obviously a hugely important thing? And then also, I think
that speaks to how the nature of power has shifted between
organisation and employee, which has been a big theme of what
we've talked about on this podcast. And if you put things
into your social media guidelines that are not
reasonable to ask for, because after all, as we both know, Gary
Lineker is a football pundit, rather than a news journalist,
then it's more likely that people will ignore them, flout
them, push against them, however you want to look at it. And that
means that those guidelines don't have value- value for
certain people. So I think it's really important to bear that in
mind, what's going to work, what's going to be
proportionate?
Paul Thomas: Yeah. And I think the other thing we at this
podcast is, we say it's about digital leadership and change
and we sort of mused at the beginning of this season,
actually, we talked about how that might have shifted for us.
It's more about leadership than anything else. And you start to
look at well, who's shown real leadership in this whole story.
And as I said, you know, Gary Lineker. It was his team, it was
the people he works with that immediately jumped in behind him
and supported him through this, so as a sort of a strong leader-
leadership figure, there are also calls across social media
for him to run for absolutely everything from Prime Minister
to- to god knows what else. I mean, it's- it's Gary Lineker,
and a strong display of leadership from him that BBC
could- could do very well to learn from.
Zoe Amar: Exactly. I think that's the whole point, isn't
it, that he's- he's really acted in line with his values. And any
organisation who is now frantically scrambling to review
their social media guidelines, I think what you have to scenario
plan for is that if you do have to put some quite strict stuff
in there that people can and can't say, you have to be
prepared for a situation where an individual or perhaps a group
of people will push back. And they'll say, 'No, we're not
doing that, because it's important we speak out on that'
and had the BBC not climbed down, this could have led to
some kind of strike action, couldn't it? And could we see
the equivalent of that happening in an organisation and people do
resign from things in- in principle or refuse to do things
in principle and that is equally political to social media as
well, isn't it?
Paul Thomas: Yeah, it totally totally. The other thing that it
brought to light was- was most amused by the the term being
coined 'emergency podcast', because I think you shared the
link to the podcast that the team that, it was Alastair
Campbell, wasn't it, put the emergency podcast together, The
Rest of Politics- The Rest is Politics podcast emergency
episode: Gary Lineker, BBC in crisis and small boats. Which is
funny again, because as we both discussed, The Rest is Politics
is actually published through Goalhanger [Podcasts] production
company. Which again, you know, just undermines how very silly
this all got over the weekend.
Zoe Amar: Why is this an emergency podcast, Paul? We need
a nice, audio clip of an ambulance rushing by.
Paul Thomas: Well, it did make me laugh about the word
emergency in front of words that just aren't emergencies at all.
So I think the whole thing just made me want to go for an
emergency lie down, because it was all a bit- all a bit much,
but no, I'm pleased that again, as a football fan, I'm pleased
that I won't have to sit through commentary-less football
highlights again next weekend. I think all eyes and ears will be
very much on that opening line from Gary Lineker, when he rocks
up on Match of the Day on Saturday night. He's usually
very, very, very good at those- those first one liners when he
introduces his programme, so I'm looking forward to what he's
going to say next week. I'm sure it won't be ignored.
Zoe Amar: But whatever he says he'll be delivering it with a
twinkle in his eye and a beautifully ironed shirt.
Paul Thomas: Yes, for listeners I did. We did have exchanged
messages over the weekend where I said well, 'I don't really
watch Match of the Day for the presenters, but I watch it for
the football', and Zoe replied, 'I watch it for the fashion'.
Which, you know, with- with some of some of Micah Richards,
outfits that he wears on Match of the Day and on the TV, I am
in full agreement with. There is a fashion show on Match of the
Day and on Football TV every weekend. Anyway, now for our
interview with Sharon Jones of The Kings Fund.
Zoe Amar: We are very excited to welcome Sharon Jones to the
podcast today. Sharon's varied and impactful career has
encompassed the public, private, and not for profit sectors. With
TV production in her sights, her career began at MTV, where she
developed an eye for storytelling, leading to a stint
in children's TV, working for a production who were commissioned
by the BBC. Following this she spent the next few years using
her keen journalistic skills as senior editor and producer for a
range of websites including AOL. From their, her digital
knowledge led to working in digital production for BBC Radio
1 and Sky TV Guide, where she interviewed the great and the
goods, but also worked across the Sky Arts and Sky Atlantic
websites. Realising the vast set of skills she had gathered in
the commercial sector could greatly benefit the nonprofit
sector, she followed her heart and became Head of Digital for
the UK's largest children's reading charity, Book Trust.
There, she transformed their digital presence, relaunching
their website, content, and social media strategies,
developing and executing their biggest campaigns, all while
training and upskilling staff. She currently works for the
health and care think tank, The King's Fund as their Head of
Digital Innovation, where she is leading on the fund's digital
vision by moving the organisation forward with
audiences and with digital at its heart. Sharon, welcome to
Starts at the Top.
Sharon Jones: Well I thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
Zoe Amar: We are so happy to have you here today. And we are
especially interested to hear about your journey. Because
going through your bio, you've done so many interesting things
working with everyone from AOL, to BBC, to Sky. Can you take us
through that journey and how it develops?
Sharon Jones: Yeah, sure, absolutely. It's definitely-
it's definitely varied. And obviously, I've crossed over a
lot of different sectors. But I think what for me has been the
real kind of core of them all have been audiences. And they've
all been really focused on their audience and really passionate
about serving the people that they're trying to reach and
trying to find new audiences. And I think, mixed into that
with like journalism and storytelling, I've just found a
kind of thread that's gone through all of those different
roles, even though they sound really, really different,
they've always- I've always been drawn to like, this creative
element. But equally, you know, it's got a purpose in terms of
trying to serve an audience. So that to me, has been like the
biggest kind of thread, although it seems very kind of here,
there, and everywhere. Yeah, that's kind of been the biggest
thing.
Zoe Amar: That's really interesting. And do you feel
that journalism experience has been quite helpful for where you
are now, in terms of digital?
Sharon Jones: Definitely, I think, even in the role that I'm
in now, when you want to piece together, you know, a strategy,
or something really tangible, like an animation or a podcast,
they all still need a story to tell, internally and externally,
to an audience. And I think having that kind of writing
background has really stood me in good stead for all the jobs
that I've done. Obviously, there's an element of writing in
all of them, whether you're writing a kind of paper, or
you're writing a script, or you're, you know, writing some
kind of blurb, there's always an element of that, which I always
enjoy. But it's just kind of using digital now, and using the
storytelling techniques around digital that have really
enhanced all of those roles and have been all the way through
every single, pretty much every single job I've done, apart from
the early days where I wasn't fully working in digital, I was
working in TV. However, working in TV is still all about
storytelling, it's still about taking the audience, you know
the person who's watching on a journey. It's just in a
different way from digital.
Zoe Amar: And of those many and varied experiences, are there
some of them which have really informed the way that you lead
now?
Sharon Jones: Yeah, I think one of them that really stands out,
was working at Radio 1. And the reason that was is because it's
a real period of my life, I was quite young, I didn't have
children. So you know, you could really throw yourself into it.
But the reason that one stands out is the leadership. I'd never
kind of seen people who lead in the way that they did there. And
one person in particular, she was really inspiring, she was a
woman, she was a black woman, she was a really senior exec.
And- but she was kind of humble. She knew her staff. So you know,
she had authority. And this mixture of that, in one person
was really, really inspiring, you know, she made good
decisions. But she was also just a human, she just you know she
made mistakes. She wasn't kind of, you know, so up on this
pedestal, that you couldn't reach her. She was really
approachable, and she was really accessible. And when you're in
sort of a junior member of staff, and you want to speak to
somebody like that, you could, you know, they could be really
scary when they're like, at the top of the tree, so to speak.
But she wasn't, and I found, like her leadership and some of
the other members at the top there really inspiring, and
actually just sort of really down to earth in a way that I
wouldn't have expected, when I'd sort of joined such a kind of
well known, you know, organisation.
Zoe Amar: That's really exciting. It sounds like that
woman, the experience of working with her really stayed with you.
Sharon Jones: Definitely. And I think it's something like, in
the back of my mind, I always sort of refer back to her in
some way. Maybe not kind of explicitly, but thinking, 'oh
yeah, what was it about her that made her such a good leader?'
You know, she's not the only person I've encountered in my
career, who really inspired me, there's other people as well,
she stands out, but there's other people, like when I worked
at Book Trust, I had a really supportive boss. And she also
kind of stood out in a completely different way, in a
more in a way about having good ideas and executing those ideas,
and not being kind of your kind of stiff charity boss. You know,
she just had a sparkle about her. I think that's more like
personality, rather than, let's say leadership, but it's good to
see somebody in that role who could just be themselves. And
that's something that stood out for me as well.
Paul Thomas: It's funny, isn't it, when you think back over
different managers and leaders that you've experienced over
your career, and whether you got on with them or not, there's
usually something that you can take away. There's the infinite
times that I start to quote old line managers, regardless kind
of how I felt about them. And one in particular, I won't, you
know, won't name names, but day to day could be a real pain in
the backside. But some of the things that they shared with us
or some of the ideas, I still use today. And I can't tell you
any of them, because people might be listening and and say,
'Oh, I know who that was', but, you know, it's just those little
snippets, those little tidbits of stuff that you take forward
with you, and yeah. That certainly- certainly in my
lifetime- in my work lifetime, there have been things that
stood out. One boss in particular, who has just- just
changed careers to become a stand up comedian, which is
unbelievable.
Sharon Jones: Amazing.
Paul Thomas: Completely amazing, completely amazing. I need to go
and have coffee with her to find out where that's where that's
headed.
Sharon Jones: Wow, that's quite a career change. Quite an
inspiring in another way, isn't it? It's just like, giving it a
go, and having the courage to try something completely new. I
think that's always something to admire, as a quality in leaders,
and not to be kind of scared to make mistakes, to have a
vulnerability to just show their human side. And I find I'm drawn
to leaders who are like that, rather than a sort of command
and control type leaders, which you know seems quite obvious
really, but yeah. You remember your good ones, and you remember
the ones that aren't so good. and even from those people I've
had in the past, you always learn like, that's how not to do
leadership, or that's not how I want to do it
Zoe Amar: Incredibly formative relationship, isn't it, because
you spend so much time with your boss, even in this age of remote
working, hybrid working, and they are going to influence you
in some way, whether for better or for worse, and their actions
are going to stay with you on it, because they impact you so
Sharon Jones: Absoloutely, Snd their but you know- their
directly.
actions and their behaviours and what they say and how they
present themselves, not necessarily, you know, the
clothes they wear, but just the kind of that outward facing
facet of themselves is really key. And I think that has really
helped me it doesn't mean I don't have my own style. It just
means it's kind of made me think yeah, 'what's been good about
that person that I think would lend itself well, in the roles
that I've had,' and you know, it's taken me into spaces that I
think yeah, it's worked.
Zoe Amar: Exciting. So I guess big thing that's come out of
your career so far, feels like it's about adaptability, as well
as having those values and those kind of golden threads of
various interests that run through everything. And how has
that led you to where you are now?
Sharon Jones: I think I've always kind of got to the point
where I think if I've done something to the point that I'm
not learning, or I feel like I need to try and change, I'll
take that leap. And that's probably why my career it's
quite, you know, I've done lots of different things. And it's
about courage. And I'm always trying to push myself more, to
do things that take me out of my comfort zone, or something I
haven't tried before. And some of these roles have lent
themselves to that. So I think that I, in terms of where I am
now, you know, I don't have a healthcare background, but I
have a really strong digital background. And I'm keen on
giving people what they want in terms of digital experiences.
And that's why it can cross many sectors because it's not about
necessarily having that specialist healthcare knowledge
or knowledge about children's literature or- or knowledge
about, you know, entertainment, it's about giving people what
they want, the way they want it in a timely fashion, and in the
spaces that they inhabit, rather than forcing it on them and
hoping that they'll take up, pick it up.
Paul Thomas: This podcast is nothing but about how digital
crosses over sectors and disciplines and all sorts of
different things. And I think that's really true, isn't it, we
can find ourselves quite pigeon holed in- in spaces, you know,
for- for example, it's no- no coincidence that two of my
clients are accountancy firms where I worked for 10 years
within an accountancy firm. And I tried to sort of go off and
work with other organisations, working with a health charity at
the moment and other other places where you can apply the
same level of thinking but to a completely- completely different
discipline. So that variety has always been important to me.
Sharon Jones: Definitely.
Zoe Amar: Paul is the fun side of accounting, just to reassure
you Sharon.
Paul Thomas: [Laughs] Yeah, there was this- there was this
line wasn't there, I can't remember, I need to find out
where this came from, but there was I think it was an article, I
think it was a Forbes article, we'll have to go away and check
it, but I think it was- it was headlined, 'why accountants will
change the world' or 'why accountants will save the
world', I think it actually was. I still haven't got to the
bottom of exactly why, but they are, you know, quite important.
My accountant in particular is fairly important. And, you know,
I live by what they say.
Sharon Jones: I definitely underestimated, I think, you
know, they're- they're creative in a different way. They
probably get a bit pigeonholed-
Paul Thomas: Hopefully not too creative.
Sharon Jones: [Laughs] Oh no, not that kind of creative. But
yeah, you know, that's what underpins the vision of what we
want to try and do. We need to have the funds to do that. So
you need an accountant, who kind of understands what you're
trying to achieve, and also finds the money for it.
Paul Thomas: Exactly.
Zoe Amar: So bringing it back to the present day and and The
King's Fund, we'd love to hear a bit about some of the digital
challenges and opportunities you're currently facing.
Sharon Jones: Yeah, absolutely. So my role there is as digital
innovation, sorry Head of Digital Innovation, and I think
the challenges are, how we're going to make the most impact in
the healthcare sector, which is just a huge challenge, because,
you know, the current state of the NHS is very challenging, the
external environment... But also, it's about having the
digital capability, and making sure staff feel confident in
what they're doing. And also producing products that really
help in our services that help our wider audience. So that in a
way, they're both challenges and opportunities, you know. The
opportunities are kind of endless, you know, the
healthcare sector is vast, there's so much good work being
done, and there's so much good work to be done. But equally,
you know, at The King's Fund itself, we're a small
organisation, and it's about having a sort of parameters
around our vision and making that happen. And looking at what
we really need in terms of digital capability to, you know,
realise those- those dreams, essentially.
Zoe Amar: And you and I have talked about skills quite a lot
and what you're doing about digital skills, can you tell
people a bit more about that?
Sharon Jones: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it you know, sort of
came out from your, your paper your report for last year, the
charity, digital skills report. You know, how people- there's
still quite fear around digital and I think it's about like
democratising it, making it accessible to people. They were
coming through the pandemic, and you know, we're all working from
home and you know, hybrid working, but there's still work
to be done. And it's about making it accessible for people,
making digital, you know, something that people can get on
board with. It's not this scary thing that's been done to them,
it's how they can help be part of this narrative of moving to a
more digitally enabled culture, and not feel fearful about it,
and be on board because, you know, the possibilities are
endless. So in terms of skills, where we are now is like, do we
know? Do we upskill staff do bring on staff who've already
got a level of capability? You know, there's an element of if
we want to be digitally enabled, do we just bring on every person
that we bring on in all the various departments, they've all
got a certain level, or are we going to invest and make sure
that we bring everybody up to a particular level in order to,
you know, achieve our sort of strategic goals? It's a bit of a
challenge. And, you know, I really agree with that
partnership working and looking at what other organisations are
doing, how have they done it well? You know, knowledge share,
and to sort of get the best of what is out there, but in a way
that we can tangibly do it at The King's Fund?
Paul Thomas: What are some of the specifics that you're
finding teams within The King's Fund are asking for from you as
a- as a digital expert within the organisation?
Zoe Amar: And why do you think there's that fear factor around
Sharon Jones: Yeah, I think- I think there's a- one of the
things around collaborative tools. We use quite a few
digital skills still?
collaborative tools, and it's about sort of streamlining them,
Sharon Jones: I mean there might be stuff around, you know,
knowing what are the most effective tools that work for
everybody, because in certain departments, you might have a
embarrassment. You might be embarrassed that you don't have
digital team, you know, they're using various things - I don't
know if I'm allowed to mention them but - you know, things like
Trello, and- and various platforms that they use, but
that's not rolled out across the whole organisation. So is that
something that we want to take up so that other departments can
work using those kinds of tools, or is that something that, you
know, is only for about those teams that work in that way? I
think that's one of the things that we're trying to, well I'm
trying to kind of look at, in the broader sense, going right,
'What is it we're trying to do? What are these tools for? How
can we use them in the most effective way, without excluding
a particular skill set within digital, or you might feel like
teams or individuals, so that we benefit from it all?' That's
what I'd say.
you don't want to. You know, you're quite happy doing what
you want to- you know working in the way that you've always
worked. It's never caused any trouble and you want to continue
working in that way. You know it's a bit of that, 'this is how
we work, and this is how we're always going to work', kind of
mindset. And then I find that it's about trying to bring that
transformational change internally to show people what
the benefits are in moving forward using digital. And that
way we can really, you know, get ahead in the field that we're
in.
Paul Thomas: Some of the- one of the- sort of the biggest
challenges I've seen, particularly with the healthcare
organisation I'm working with is still that sense, and it goes
back to- this goes back to accountancy, you know, the
number one fear from accountants was that they would use some of
these tools if they were internal or external, so we're
talking about social media or sharing something internally,
that they'd say something wrong, that they'd get something wrong,
that they'd say something out of turn, or they would get yeah,
they would, they would post something that they couldn't
stand behind. And now, sort of 10, 15 years later, what we're
seeing is still that sense, maybe not externally, I think
people are getting a bit more used to how these social
channels work, still get tripped up by them, quite often, if
we're honest, but internally is that slight fear of putting
their head above the parapet, and out- standing out and saying
something. And sometimes it's the very reason why these tools
don't get adopted in a way. So things like Yammer, things like
Teams- Teams is it's fairly- people are adapting to it quite
well, because it's a small group of people, usually around a
specific subject. But then take that out onto something like
Yammer or something where they're sharing with the wider
organisation, and there is that fear of putting their head above
Sharon Jones: And I think that probably, even you know
the parapet.
broadening that out further is around the culture. You know, if
there's a culture where it's maybe around perfectionism, or
maybe sort of high excellence, then people might feel even more
fearful in terms of, you know, putting their neck on the line
and trying something new. And if you want to have like an
experimental culture, you've got to have a culture that is
allowed to fail and you're allowed to make mistakes and
trip up and try again. And there might be something playing into
that- that kind of world, because I guess accountants, you
know, they're very precise, can't really mess up with the
numbers, etc, etc. And I feel like that could be probably part
of that, that wider culture. So it's almost a cultural thing, in
allowing people to go, 'look, I feel vulnerable enough to say
like, 'I don't know how to use this, I feel a bit embarrassed.
I'm not really sure. Do I even need it? What have I got to
say?'' And sort of educating them, but equally giving them
the confidence to just give it a go, because ultimately, we're,
you know, we're all just here trying, winging it, and not
necessarily knowing absolutely, you know, you can't know
everything. And I think it's encouraging teams to try things,
and that will kind of help embed new practices.
Paul Thomas: And encouraging leaders to play in that space as
well.
Sharon Jones: Absoloutely. Yeah, definitely of leaders, because
you know, people are watching you and you know, you want to
kind of set an example, then, you know, you're modelling
aren't you and so equally, you've got to kind of be brave
yourself, but also be kind of humble enough to say, 'look, I
might just trip up myself, but you know, whoops. It's okay.
It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to fail'. I think if you
give that message out, that gives a more open experimental,
creative environment for teams to give things a try.
Zoe Amar: Where do you think organisations should be setting
the bar at the moment? I mean, obviously, it's going to be
different, because everyone's at different stages of digital
maturity, but do you think we should be aiming higher with
this stuff now?
Sharon Jones: I think, high, I mean it depends what high looks
like. You know, aiming high is great, but if you're already
nervous about, you know, putting a post out on social media, then
maybe that's just too much. I think it's like almost baby
steps, but equally saying you know, 'we need to move at pace
as well, otherwise we're going to be left behind', you know,
and you won't be relevant. It's finding that balance, and I
think that that needs to be set, you know, across the
organisation. It doesn't always have to come from the top. I
think there's a bit of a myth about everything has to be set
from up high, actually, there's lots going on in other parts of
the organisation that might be doing some really interesting
things that you might not know about. It's about kind of, like
I say, democratising digital, making it accessible, and
collectively thinking, 'well, where do we need to get to? And
how do we get there?'.
Zoe Amar: And really owning that as an organisation.
Sharon Jones: Absolutely. And being accountable, you know. I
think sometimes it's- it's easy to kind of blame or, you know,
sort of point fingers, I think, actually just sort of owning it
is the as the best way of describing that. And just, and
just trying, like literally just try.
Zoe Amar: And not being afraid to do that, either. Yeah, it's a
echoed theme that we were talking about earlier. Sorry. Go
Zoe Amar: I love that. Feeling your way with it. There's an
on.
Sharon Jones: No, absolutely, yeah, just, you know, like,
literally just you know step out, you know, a millimetre out
of your comfort zone, and then, you know, go a bit further
again, and go a bit further again, and that, sort of
building that momentum of just giving it a go and have a look
outside, you know, look out, look up. What are other people
doing? Where are they doing it well? And just sort of, you
know, have conversations. I don't think there's a kind of
textbook answer. And this is the way, you know, chapter one,
paragraph two, that's how you're going to get there. I think
you've got to feel your way, and sort of be iterative about it.
element of intuition isn't there as much as the measuring and the
planning?...Tracking?
Sharon Jones: Yeah, get out of your head, bit more into your
heart, I guess. Just try it. Especially as I work at think
tank, we you know, we think a lot. It's like, trying to sort
of translate that into- into more doing and tangible outputs.
Zoe Amar: It's making that transition from that cerebral
side, I suppose of what you do, which is obviously one of The
King's Fund's strengths isn't it?
Sharon Jones: Absolutely, absolutely. Some amazing minds
there. And, you know, that's not to be kind of dismissed in
anyway. It's just sort of harnessing that thinking into,
you know, reaching even wider audiences. That's the key.
Zoe Amar: So speaking of progress, we've talked a few
times, you and I, about inclusion, and as women of
colour, how we want to see that change across the sector, what's
your take on where the sector's at?
Sharon Jones: I think the sector still has a way to go. Like a
lot of sectors to be absolutely honest. And I think that's one
of the kind of positions of privilege that I have in that I
can sort of show young women of colour or people of colour that
you know, you can go up the ranks a bit. It doesn't have to
be- it's not impossible. It's not easy, but it's not
impossible, either. And I think with the charity sector, there
is still work to be done. You know, I've worked in
organisations where I'm one of the few faces of colour and it's
just- you just think, wow, how can we be actually- how can we
serve our audiences if we're so...mono? I just can't see how
it's possible. If everybody's come from a particular
background, or they're a particular type, whatever that
type is by the way, it could just be- it could be women. You
know, how- how can we genuinely say we are reaching all these
different people impactfully if you don't have that diversity in
your own workforce. And I feel really strongly about that. And
I think you have to look at what- what are the barriers?
What- where do they begin? And to be really honest and open
about that in your organisation, again it's showing that
vulnerability to sort of unpick what is actually happening, and
try to find a way forward and, you know, employ more diverse
people. And what does that even- what does that that even look
like in reality?
Zoe Amar: [Have we] got enough momentum around this issue?
Sharon Jones: As a sector? I think is definitely building
definitely. I think, you know, you have to keep going. It's
never- it's never over. There's never like an end point. You
have to keep chipping away at it. And I think at the moment, I
think there is quite a lot of momentum, actually, I'll be
honest and say there was, but it's easy to let it slide. And
just to kind of like, 'oh, yeah, that was that thing, and we're
moving on', but I feel like, now is a really great opportunity to
like, harness that energy that is there. And to sort of amplify
it. So that, you know, you do get different faces in all these
spaces, basically.
Zoe Amar: It's so essential, isn't it, especially for all
these massive challenges that we're all facing at the moment?
Sharon Jones: Absolutely. And, you know, from big
organisations, to small organisations, you know, we can
all do our part. I don't think there's any excuses to not have
that as, like, one of your key priorities in your strategic,
you know- you know, whatever your strategy looks like, that
should be definitely be in there, because how else can we
actually reach the type of person you're reaching, if
you're kind of- if you're excluding you know, essentially?
Paul Thomas: [You could] say it's exactly that, isn't it,
that you know you have to look at the audience you're trying to
reach, and then reflect that within the organisation?
Sharon Jones: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And to make it
easy for organisations to make it easy for people to join your
organisation, like some of- you know you come across some really
challenging like recruitment platforms where you think,
'well, you're not going to get a diverse workforce, if you have
got a really hard platform to navigate, you know, loads of
forms to fill in, or you know you have to write a set thing',
that's just going to turn off people who are neurodiverse,
people who English might be their second language. You know,
there's so many entry points, and I think it just starts even
at that level, when you- you know, you put out a job that you
want people to apply for, and then they're gonna apply for it,
and if it's really hard straightaway, you've just
excluded a whole bunch of talent. And I think it starts,
you know, even at that level.
Zoe Amar: I completely agree with that. It really starts at
those very early stages doesn't it. And then speaking of looking
to the future, what's on your digital radar for 2023 Sharon?
Sharon Jones: Well part of my role is to be sort of putting
together the vision with my colleagues. So we'll, you know,
Zoe Amar: So it's bringing people back to that focus on
I can't go into like, top top detail, but I think about
working in agile fashion, and which doesn't seem very kind of
groundbreaking, but I think there's something in there about
teams coming together, really collaborating, and you know
putting your sort of best minds in terms of different types of
people, again, it's that diverse and inclusive kind of narrative,
and getting digital products and experiences and services out to
your audiences with all of those elements in mind. And I think
that's a really, really key. So for King's Fund, that's really
important to us, we want to reach different audiences, you
know, healthcare sector is vast, it's also very challenging at
the moment for the workforce who are involved in health and care.
So what can we do to support leaders and support, you know,
the workforce, in terms of the things that they need? So, you
know, again, it's sort of deep diving into audiences, what do
they want? What do they need? And for us to kind of deliver that.
users isn't?
Sharon Jones: Absolutely, it's always, I always think it's
always about people. Any kind of transformation always starts
with people, more so than the tech, that comes later. But
there's always you've got to get the buy in, you've got to, you
know, really bring people on the journey. And you can't do that,
and you can't deliver it without staff. So you need people. It
always starts there. In my mind.
Paul Thomas: That word, confidence, is always there,
isn't it? And I think it's certainly in most of the work
that I do. You start with the word confidence, because you
need confident leaders to show the way, you need confident
staff to be able to use the tools, and then that breeds
confidence in the audiences that you're- you're trying to talk
to. So yeah, that- that's always where- where we start. You're
right, you know, we might call this podcast Starts at the Top,
but it doesn't always start at the top. I think it starts with
confidence sometimes and that can come from anywhere.
Sharon Jones: Absolutely. And I always think, you know, again,
like ideas can come from absolutely anywhere and they
should, you know, it shouldn't just be a particular department
or team has to have the pressure of coming up with a next idea. I
think it's about, you know, ideas can come from across an
organisation, be harnessed - the skills that they might need to
bring that idea to life might have to come from a particular
team. However, the sort of initial thinking can be, you
know, from anywhere. And I think that's one thing when I worked
at Radio 1 that really stuck with me is that, you know, ideas
could come from anywhere. You know, although you have
producers and presenters, if you had a germ of an idea, every
year, they used to do a kind of like documentary idea. Anybody
could come up with a documentary, and it didn't
matter if you were work experience person, or if you
worked on, you know, the receptionist or, you know, you
worked in HR, you could come up with that idea, and if that idea
was chosen, it would be taken forward, you'd be teamed up with
the producers and presenters, and that idea would be brought
to life. And I think it's about that. It's collaborative, you
know, being collaborative, being open, you know, not saying that
you are the only expert, and you're the only person who can
do this thing, but equally, you know, sort of doing it for the
greater good. Like, why are you doing this? You know, it's
always equally the why as well, it's crucial, as well as having
the people to bring it to life.
Zoe Amar: Love that idea! I would really love to hear more
charities doing that actually.
Sharon Jones: Definitely! I mean, I want to kind of say
introduce that in The King's Fund where it doesn't have to be
a particular team. You know, yes, it's great if it comes from
sort of the usual creative kind of departments, but it doesn't
have to be, you know, and I think it's about just even
making that change, can kind of shake things up and bring an
openness to an organisation, which makes people feel like
they can, you know, be themselves. They can, you know,
bring themselves to work, because they think, 'well, I'm
not going to be sort of shouted down, because I'm in operations,
and I've come up with an idea that could be a campaign. Like,
why should that be the case?'
Zoe Amar: 100% it really democratises that innovation
process doesn't it?
Sharon Jones: Yeah, definitely. We're all, we're all
responsible. We're all, you know, we all work in our
workplaces for a reason, we've all joined that organisation for
a reason. So it's kind of our duty to kind of help take it
forward to serve the people who need us most.
Zoe Amar: And can we finish by you telling us one thing that
you wish you'd learned earlier in your career?
Sharon Jones: Oh I think it's just, to give it a go. Like, if
I was, you know, when you're sort of starting out, you know
you can be a bit cautious, can't you? You just think you've got
to go in a bit of a straight line. And I'm kind of glad those
days are over. But I think if I had just taken a bit more leap
of faith here and there, yeah, that's definitely- just give it
a go. Just literally try. There's- there's nothing wrong
with failing, you learn from that. You know, sort of fail
more, I think. Just give it a try. Definitely. I'm more like
that now. Way more like that now, but I think, when you're
first starting out, you're- you're too scared, because you
don't know. I think if you've got that kind of confidence,
that kind of grows with, you know, doing more jobs, but I
think doing it, trying it, and giving it a whirl, there's no
harm in that at all.
Zoe Amar: Amazing what a great note to end on Sharon. Thank
you. Focusing on confidence and being brave, and just trying
things out. Thank you.
Sharon Jones: Absolutely. You're welcome. Thank you for having
me. It's been brilliant.
Paul Thomas: Thank you. Yeah great sentiment to end on. Thank
you.
Zoe Amar: Thank you so much to Sharon for her time and sharing
her wonderful insights.
Paul Thomas: So this was the last episode in this current
run, but we're already planning and plotting our next season. So
if you have any ideas, I know we've been out on social media.
And Zoe you've already got a couple of people lined up for
next season. It would be great if you could share any ideas
with us about the type of people you'd like to hear from. Should
we go after Gary Lineker, Zoe?
Zoe Amar: He might be quite busy at the moment, Paul. If he
stayed off Match of the Day then he'd have a bit more spare time,
but maybe we'll have to wait for the season after the next one.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, we might have to. So in the meantime, we- you
can find us on Twitter, we're at @startsatthetop1 and you can
also email us at startsatthetop@gmail.com.
Zoe Amar: And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or anywhere
else you get your podcasts, you can rate and review, please do.
It helps more people find out about our podcast. And we'll
speak to you again next season.
Paul Thomas: We'll speak to you very soon. Thank you. Bye!
Zoe Amar: Bye!