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Joe Ryle: It was 100 years ago that we moved from a six day
working week to a five day working week. In some respects,
I think it's quite bizarre that we're still wedded to this
model, given the world of workers obviously transformed
since then.
Paul Thomas: Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top
our podcast about digital leadership and change. I'm Paul
Thomas.
Zoe Amar: And I'm Zoe Amar. This week we're excited to share our
conversation with Joe Ryle who is the director of the four day
week campaign. This is a subject that has been even more front
and centre of all of our minds since the pandemic and something
you and I speak about quite often, isn't it Paul?
Paul Thomas: Yeah, it's something that comes up a lot.
And in conversations we've had with people about flexible
working conditions and patterns and how I think, you know, the
pandemic caused us all to reset the way our working weeks are
set up and shape up. But this was interesting, because I think
what Joe and his team are edging towards is more systemic and
societal change. And it makes for a really interesting
conversation. But so how do you feel about it? So I know we've
talked about this before, but you're ready to make the move to
a four day week or even a nine day fortnight?
Zoe Amar: I would love to do that, I had an aspiration about
doing this ever since I started my business 10 years ago. And I
know it is something I will do. At some point. I think I'm just
not organised enough to do it at the moment. How about you?
Paul Thomas: Yeah, kind of similar. And I think it does
come down to that organisation, doesn't it? So I was having a
conversation with somebody that we both know, not so long ago.
And they do a really good thing where they block out meetings
every second Friday and try to take every second Friday off. So
essentially a nine day fortnight. But I think it's that
crucial bit that I think the first step towards doing that is
no meetings. So you know, putting nothing in the calendar
for that Friday. So you can actually concentrate on some of
the things that you need to concentrate on. And I think
discipline around that is probably key. The first thing
for me, when it comes to that sort of stuff always starts with
actually just not opening email. That's the one that that's the
killer app. I think if you don't open email, you'll start to the
day is so much more so serene. It's the the email inbox and
things that have happened overnight or early in the
morning that tend to throw me off on either set the day to do
something else. Yeah, it's interesting. And I think Joe's
insight into it's really interesting, and it'd be good to
know from our listeners, how they're experimenting with
giving people that flexibility back into their lives. So yeah,
stay tuned for that. Other thing we were going to discuss was
threads. You made the move over I see.
Zoe Amar: I have moved some of my social presence over there.
That's a grandiose term, basically, I've set up an
account, I'm still on Twitter, obviously, you're not engaging
with it as much as other people are in the same in the same sort
of way. I think everyone is engaging in a much more
transactional way with Twitter now, unfortunately, because
that's just become the norm for that platform. But I've got
quite good feeling about threads. I mean, it will be
interesting to see how it develops. The big challenge with
it at the moment is they just don't seem to be listening to
user feedback about accessibility. And that is going
to limit their capacity to scale. I mean, surely they
understand that it's a real shame they've missed out on
their big time.
Paul Thomas: It would be nice for one of these platforms to
start off on the right foot on many different levels rather
than just the one so they've got the bit about, you know, a
welcoming community quite right but not welcoming every one so
you know, that's a big thing to fix.
Zoe Amar: It shouldn't be an afterthought you shouldn't be
doing and accessibility, you should be doing accessibility
and... shouldn't you? You should be starting with how that would
be a much better differentiator from Twitter, wouldn't it? How
might we make this new platform as inclusive and democratic as
possible, and then build the other functionality around it,
it would probably be much easier to make decisions if you make
inclusion and accessibility that the key cornerstones
Paul Thomas: I completely agree, I can completely agree. But
don't forget, you know, these are these are engineers that
have only worked on Facebook and Instagram. It's not like they've
done this before. Brand new, a brand new venture from a team of
people that should have some previous in how to set these
things up right and you know, plenty of experience doing so.
I've sort of quite surprised to find myself on it because I sort
of I haven't mourned the death of Twitter as much as I thought
I would. So when I sort of saw thread I thought oh... just as I
was sort of getting out, you dragged me back in and that was
essentially my first my first read, it was like, oh, here I
am. But I think it's good to be there and good to sort of see
how it shapes up, I guess, watch this space, see how it develops
over time, you're right. There are some certain fundamentals
that it needs to start getting right quite quickly, otherwise,
they can find themselves their own revolt and people leaving in
droves. I was interested also to see Ian Dunt too, obviously
guest on this podcast, sort of claiming it as this is the place
to be now. But it'd be interesting to see whether
journalists and the news agenda sort of moves from Twitter over
to something else, because I think Twitter is still so
ingrained in that work.
Zoe Amar: I'm not sure that it will move over. So I'm sure I
saw a post from Ian actually not long after launch saying that,
and forgive me, I hope I'm not misquoting Ian here. So please
do check his feed. I'm pretty sure I saw a poster of him
saying something about how news wasn't going to be as much of a
priority in the algorithm. And I think he was quoting someone
from the actual platform. But I could be wrong.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, well, I wouldn't, it wouldn't surprise
me because if one of the things I want to do with it is to make
it a friendlier, more open space and putting that stuff back in
straightaway. Which is what causes most people to fall out
with each other and have that negative discussion is possibly
a misstep that we will see. We will wait and reserve judgement
for later in the next season. We'll come back to it and see
whether we're still using it. And also this week, you launched
the charity digital skills report. So we can just talk
about that.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, yeah, we'll put a link to that in the show
notes. Yeah, very exciting report this year. For the reason
that for the first time, we asked people in a bit more depth
about how they responded to the challenge of AI. So we actually
ran a flash poll alongside the survey, as well as exploring
some more lighter touch, emerging tech issues within the
report itself, definitely seen a massive increase in interest in
this area over the last year unsurprisingly. So 66%, of
charities said that they're interested in making use of
emerging tech, such as AI and chat GPT. So that was actually
up very, very significantly from the year before, it was only 15%
in 2022. So it'll be interesting to see how that develops further
across the sector. And of course, cost of living the other
big topical issue of the year. So 27% of charities, saying that
the cost of living is a significant challenge to how
they're using digital. And that's where funders listening
to what charities are saying in the report about how they need
more funding, more support, more guidance with digital is really,
really key. So we hope that funders will listen to what
charities are telling them through the mechanism of the
report and respond to that.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, it's having an impact, isn't it on many
levels, but when it comes to ability to invest, I guess is it
a mixture maybe perhaps when some cases where digital
technology can be quite hard to sell into organisations and yet
you add the the added benefit of or the added cost implications
to that and it just becomes something that we can do that
tomorrow tomorrow. Rather than getting on board with it now.
The accept the the AI shift is incredible, though. Up to 60s.
Did you say 66%?
Zoe Amar: Yeah, I mean, it's huge. And then also, what we saw
in the flash poll was, you know, 78%, saying that AI is relevant
to their charity and could transform it. So that was much
higher than I anticipate, actually. So that's good news.
But 73% said that they didn't feel prepared to respond to the
opportunities and challenges of AI. So right now in the sector,
what we've got is people very much seeing that there's an
opportunity here, but also not feeling prepared to respond to
the readiness just isn't there yet, I really hope we'll start
to see a sea change in that over the next few months, it'll be
great to see the regulator sector bodies coming together
and funders as well, obviously, to provide that support and
guidance and convening spaces for charities to learn together
about AI and how we can influence the policy in this
area is hot, because that is also a vacuum right now.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, yep. It's huge. It's huge. In another AI
related news. We went to see the new Mission Impossible film last
Friday, which is all about the rise of AI and the challenge of
AI as a global concern. So you know, if Tom Cruise is worrying
about it, then the rest of us need to be thinking about it.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, well, he would be a great podcast guest if he
fancies coming along.
Paul Thomas: He needs to get in line.
Zoe Amar: He needs to get in line! We do have some exciting
people lined up for next season don't we and yeah, he would need
to join the back of the queue.
Paul Thomas: Yeah. We need to vet him before he comes on, I
think and make sure he's got plenty to say, anyway, talking
of somebody that's got plenty to say over to our interview with
with Joe Ryle.
So we have a lot of discussion on Starts at the Top about how
we're all making changes to the way that we work post pandemic.
And for years, it seems we've been talking about looking for a
better work life balance. A recent poll showed that 58% of
the British public expected a four day week to be the normal
way of working by 2030 with only 22%, believing it wouldn't. The
four day week campaign is leading the way on this search
for balance. And we're delighted to welcome its director Joe Ryle
to the podcast. Hi Joe and welcome to Starts at the Top.
Joe Ryle: Hi, thanks for having me on here.
Paul Thomas: You're very welcome. So can you tell us and
our listeners a bit more about your background and how you got
involved in campaigning for this fundamental change in the way
that we're approaching the working week?
Joe Ryle: Yeah. So I've been working for a long time, I
guess, like most people like five days a week, sometimes,
sometimes more than that. I used to work for the Labour Party and
was involved in a couple of general election campaigns. And
I think in those days, we were working six days seven or seven
days a week on general election campaign. And I was, I was
always lucky to take part in work, though, though, largely
really enjoyed. But I just remember being quite struck by
this kind of reality that there wasn't much time for life
outside of work. And especially working in kind of high end some
high level politics job like this kind of sense that my
personal identity was a bit of a loss or something that was so
kind of defined by work, but it's not as, like, who am I
outside of this. And so I think when I was working, I didn't go
down to four days, I took the loss of I did take a pay cut at
that point. But I just seemed to have a suddenly so much enjoying
enjoying life a lot more enjoying work a lot more, but
also had a much better sense of who I was, and why I enjoy that
time at work. I just felt like it was something Yeah, it just
felt like the balance wasn't right, you know, like doing five
out of your seven days, every single week, doing the same
thing every day, it just didn't feel like the balance was right
and didn't feel like life had a good balance to it. And so I was
I didn't think there was something in there in terms of
the wider population that that people could kind of, you know,
appeal to people. And so yeah, after working for Labour Party,
and after those kind of elections, cause the Labour
Party did put the four day working week in their manifesto
at the 2019 general election. But it didn't do so well on that
election. But I felt like it was something which deserves more
attention deserved more support. And so yeah, I got involved in
the campaign quite soon after that election.
Paul Thomas: It's great. And it's it has sort of hung around
as a conversation for years and years, every employer I've ever
met that sort of talks about striving for this work life
balance. And I'm always conscious, I think is always the
same that there's this this race every Friday to get to the end
of the day and tick off the to do list, but then Monday comes
around. So this balance of five days versus two days. That the
creation of the weekend is a sort of a concept that's been
around for a number of years, but it's obviously getting that
to the point where it feels a little bit outdated.
Joe Ryle: I mean yeah very outdated. I mean, yeah, it was
100 years ago that we won the weekend, it was 100 years ago
that we moved from a six day working week to a five day
working week, which at the time, you know, was designed for a
more agricultural industrial economy. And, you know, in in
some respects, I think it's quite bizarre that we're still
wedded to this model, given the, you know, the world of work has
obviously transformed since then. And if you look at the
history, there's there was kind of a, there's an interesting
chart, which shows the kind of decline in working hours since
then, and working hours, gradually did reduce to around
the 1980s. But since the 1980s, it almost flatlined, you know,
we were almost worked on the exact same amount of hours as we
were in the 1980s. When you think about all of the
productivity gains we have had over the last few decades, you
know, none of that has really been passed back to work
sometimes have more free time, more leisure time. So we do
think this is a change, which is long overdue.
Paul Thomas: Zoe, I was thinking it's that age old conversation,
when you're at social occasions, when you do have your two days
off, you're at social occasions, and people say, so what do you
do, Paul? And it's like, well, could we have a conversation
about music about, you know, stuff that I enjoy outside of
work, we're defined by our working roles and our
professions, and that that surely needs to change. Given
everything that we've been through in the past few years.
And even the last decade or so.
Zoe Amar: Why is that? Do we think, I mean, why do we all,
now, I'm guilty of doing it myself to just define ourselves
so much by what we do and how busy we are?
Joe Ryle: I mean, I think it's a really fascinating discussion.
Because, you know, we do have an acute problem in the UK, where
we do work, some of the longest working hours in your blocks and
the longest hours in the world, I think, apart from Greece, were
the longest hours in Europe, while also having one of the
least productive economy so that all these long working out we're
doing isn't making us very productive. I do think that just
that seeps in, ultimately, doesn't it? I mean, I remember
going to university and then going into work, and it is that
person, you know, whenever you meet someone new, that first
question is kind of what do you do? And that question always
seems to be around work. And you're right, it's like, there's
so much more to the world and so much more to ourselves as
individuals. And so it is a big, it is going to be a big task to
kind of unravel that. And to start changing that culture, I
think is starting to change. I think we're at the start of that
beginning to change. And, you know, if you look at some of the
polling, you know, four day working week is popular across
the board, but it's more popular with the younger generation
coming through. And I think there is that sense, from the
younger generation that, you know, they don't want their
lives to be defined by work in the same way as it has been for
their parents generation, their grandparents generation, I think
that shift is starting to change. I mean, that's quite
exciting, but it is gonna take a while to shift that.
Zoe Amar: Is this about having more of a focus on, well it's
partly about enjoying your life, quite rightly, isn't it, but
it's also about impact and meaning rather than busyness in
this kind of classic sense that we've just talked about.
Joe Ryle: Yeah, and some of those conversations are quite,
that's quite interesting, you know, when we, because we do
coaching as well, you know, we do coaching and training with
companies and organisations to help them move into a four day
workweek. And it's interesting that we all have been asked the
question, but the very beginning isn't, what do you define as
kind of success? The organisation kind of what are
those metrics? What are the what's the real bits of world
focus that really brings the kind of rewards for the
organisation, and sometimes that can be a sense of confusion
amongst kind of businesses and companies, I'm often surprised
there's that almost not clear about what they're actually
trying to achieve in a working where you can, I think it's
yeah, it's fascinating, and it doesn't highlight the kind of
culture we've had in this country for a long time. It's
just kind of we work these hours, and we kind of do stuff
and that time, and actually, what what we're saying is that,
you know, actually, we can be more focused, we can be more
strategic about what we're trying to get done at work and,
and fit that into four days, and then have a you know, enjoy our
lives much more outside of work.
Zoe Amar: And we start learning about these concepts. So early,
don't we? I mean, I vividly remember my daughter, she's 10
now, but when she was two, my husband put her down for a nap.
And he was like, Oh, I can hear something upstairs, what's going
on? And he went upstairs and she was sitting in my office where
I'm sat right now pretending to tap on the keyboard. She was
only two years old at the time, and my husband went What are you
doing? And she said, I am too busy to nap, daddy. It's just
rocketing how early on in life, we start to realise that our
value is kind of demonstrated through this sense of, of being
busy, isn't it?
Joe Ryle: Yeah, exactly. And, and why? You know, I think we do
have to ask the question, like, why is it seen as a badge of
honour to be sort of busy all the time? Why is that something
that we kind of reward? We always seem to kind of elevate
someone's social status because they're busy all the time. I
mean, I don't think that's really a good thing to strive
on. An end it is you know, even you're right even when when we
go to school for the first time, whatever it is seven or eight
years old. So we're five days a week, we're on the five days a
week model when it's drilled into us from the from the very
start. And, and obviously, if we don't, we're talking about what
we are kind of advocating for the long term, is it kind of
societal economic shifts, or four day work week for everyone?
Of course, you couldn't really do that overnight, you know, you
can, you can't really give all of the schools a four day week
unless you're giving parents a four day week too. So which is
why we actually launched our manifesto this week, which is
why we're saying that it does need to be coordination on this
problem and of government and business leaders, trade union
leaders to really think about how we can implement this across
the economy. But it's going to take a long time to shift the
mentality, but I do, I've been encouraged that that is starting
to happen.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, I was gonna ask that question about
something like schools, because I know, there's work being done
to try and get this into the NHS health care workers to try and
increase productivity and give people a bit more of a break.
But it'd be interesting to explore, I guess how that works.
Are there any schools or any sort of educational institutions
that are picking it up? Or at least trying to do something
with it?
Joe Ryle: Yeah, there's a handful of schools that moved to
four and a half day a week. And because of the government
regulation, there's a certain amount of hours, I think it's 32
hours that have to be delivered, despite the kind of education
also, so that, that does make it trickier in the education
sector, but then to actually do a true kind of for the for the
staff line kids. And I think, you know, I think it's almost a
separate conversation around the kind of benefits for children
and kids of being in school one day less, I think, I think, I
think there is a compelling case for kids and their development.
And there's a lot more time to play and have more time outside
of the kind of classroom and for the exam kind of culture, which
comes with schools, but I think that's quite separate case from,
kind of benefits for teachers. But you know, if you think about
all of the sectors of the economy, and I can't really
think of two better examples where you know, burnout, stress,
overwork, are kind of rife, you know, that is you think about
NHS and schools, you look at the data witness, I mean, you know,
particularly in education, teachers are leaving after a
year of burnout and that, that means that that means a kid's
education, some of the best teachers are moving on and not
staying in the sector, and creates all sorts of problems in
terms of job recruitment, job retention, so they really never
thinking about this holistically. There is there is
a case for getting that. But it's quite difficult to
implement that on I kind of bit by bit on school here, one
school there. There does need to be some sunlight coordination.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, I know, it was commented in this, as I
said, I told a WhatsApp group that you were coming on to this
call this morning and got loads of comments back and that was
one of the questions. So okay, if the school goes to a four day
week, what's the point in me having a four day week, I might
have to go back to the five day week, because if the kids are
around then I lose the benefit of having that fifth day.
Joe Ryle: I mean a lot of parents probably want more time
with their kids, but I'm sure it goes the other way as well. And
I mean, obviously, there's all sorts of problems of childcare
in this country as well, which hopefully is it's, you know,
it's finally getting a bigger conversation about it anyway.
But yeah, it's tricky. The worrying thing in the NHS, as
well as that, you know, if you look at all the survey data, the
you know, the number one reason NHS workers are leaving is
because there's a lack of work life balance, it comes back time
and time again, all survey data is that is the first reason
they're putting. So yes, we need more nurses and doctors and yes
that there probably would be some cost to that, and the
government would have to put some money in. But whatever is
happening right now is not working you know, for anyone so,
we do need to think bigger.
Paul Thomas: So who's coming to you then. So who's going to
help, for you to help? We hear four day week is being more
widely adopted by small businesses, but even your, who's
sort of coming to you demanding help or looking for help?
Joe Ryle: Yes. So it's a really, really wide mix of companies
really, it does tend to be at the moment that kind of smaller
businesses in the private sector has kind of been the early
pioneers, there's definetly hundreds of those companies that
have done it in the UK, which is you know, just a significant,
are still a relatively smaller scale, but it's a significant
change in what you know, where we were a few years ago, where
you could kind of count the amount of four day week
companies on one or two hands. And we ran the biggest ever
pilot four day working week in the world, so far. Last year, we
had about 61 companies signed up, which was the equivalent of
3000 workers. And the exciting thing was it was a real mix of,
of companies from across different sectors of the
economy. So we had healthcare, retail, manufacturing,
hospitality, that efficient chip shop taking part in a brewery
taking parts and they weren't all taken Friday's off you know,
some of those companies were doing 32 hours but on a
different rotation. So some stuff having Monday's off some
stuff having Friday's off. Some companies even doing five days
and five much shorter days is better two hours over five days.
But you know, the overriding principle, they're reducing
hours by 80% and maintaining payment. The results were
incredible, you know, we had almost every company at the end
of that six month trial decided to continue with it, really,
really impressive results in terms of the benefits for
workers, better well being better mental health, people
were just reporting that their life satisfaction is out there
enjoying their lives more. And then on the flip side, for the
companies, you know, companies actually making more profits
than they were before job retention, reduction in sick
days. So it's a real bit of benefits for businesses as well.
So it tends to be a real mix, we've started running more kind
of national rollout programmes, and we're going to run those and
of course, the support companies in moving for 40 minutes, it
does seem to be a real mix for that couldn't can't really pin
it down in terms of this particular sector. And that
comes to us more.
Zoe Amar: And Joe, that kind of impetus that energy for those
conversations you've talked about with companies, where is
it coming from? Is it coming more from the kind of
grassroots, the employees? Or is the drive coming from leaders?
What trends are you noticing there?
Joe Ryle: I think initially, and I think that's where we are, I
believe we're at the very beginning of a societal shift
towards a four day working week. And if you look at the history
of the kind of move from a six day weeks to a five days, it did
take at least a decade, you know, it was at least a decade,
for that change to happen. I think we're at the very
beginning of that. So in that respect, it is the kind of
really it is the kind of early pioneers, it is the bosses who
were like, you know, what, this sounds really good, we're gonna
make this work, I believe in my in my workers, and I'm really
going to value them by giving them this change, but also, you
know, kind of benefit our business as well, in terms of
better productivity and all the rest of it. So I think it is,
yeah, I think the kind of hundreds of companies have done
it so far. They are the kind of people the bosses, the good
bosses, if you like, who really believe in it, who really
believe in passing back to their workers, which has been great.
But you know, that's not going to lead to a four day work week
for everyone. So we do, we are starting to see more and more of
kind of workers thinking about how they can kind of start
organising for this in their workplace, you know, and they
start demanding this, and they're presenting the kind of
case for it to their employer. And we're, you know, we are
trying to get more support the trade union movement as well, in
terms of you know, then also being involved in this because
it you know, it was, we've got to remember it was the trade
unions that basically won us the weekend 100 years ago. So
there's, we've been, there's definitely a role to play in
Zoe Amar: That's so interesting. And what it makes me think of is
this.
some of the conversations I've had with people who have
successfully taken on a four day week, and how it forces you to
be really disciplined in how you spend your time across those
four days, like less meetings and all that kind of thing. Are
there any trends that you've seen in those changes in working
habits that people might need to make in order to really go for
it with a full day week?
Joe Ryle: Yes, I think there's two parts to the four day
working week being implemented successfully. The first part is
just that you reduce people's hours, wellbeing does go up. And
that is is always passed on back to the kind of workplace that
you do just get natural productivity gains from that.
But the second part of it is, is about working differently and
working smarter and kind of refocusing priorities sometimes
for organisations. And yeah, we do a whole load of work with
companies sometimes to think about that. And you do all this
up naturally adjust. You know, like, for example, when I start
my work week, on a Monday, I kind of I know it's Monday to
Thursday, so you just adjust things, and until then, and
sometimes that will mean having a much busier first day than I
normally would do. But you know, I'm quite happy to work like
that, and hopefully get quite a lot done on that Thursday to
mean that Friday, I'm fully off and not thinking about work at
all. So that's been reported back a few times by employees,
you know, some this sort of like you naturally adjust to fit your
work into those four days,
Paul Thomas: Then you have to be quite disciplined, don't you? So
you know, I've said several times to Zoey right? That's it,
doing a nine day or a nine day fortnight. And then when it
comes to that Friday, and somebody sends you that email
saying oh could you just fit in a call on Friday morning? Well,
yeah, suppose I could because then I've got the whole of the
rest of the day ahead of me and then suddenly, two calls and
then three calls and then that disappears. So I guess it's
easier for an organisation should be an organ easier for an
organisation like mine or Zoe's to just say, right, that's it.
That's what we're doing. And then when anybody joins, that's
what they're joining, as opposed to creating this change in an
organisation that's just not used to it.
Joe Ryle: Yeah, and I think that highlights one of the biggest
problems we're facing which is that you know, some
organisations are moving to a four day working week are doing
it still in a society, which is very dominated by this kind of
five day working week. And it's kind of always on culture. And
we think we also have to consider the impact that you
know, smartphones have had on the workplace and this kind of
yeah, this always on, you know, you're always expected to kind
of have your emails on your phone and respond to stuff. And
yeah, I mean, that's, that's why we do always say, when companies
move to a four day week is like, you know, don't lie in the fact
you've done it, you know, put it on your email signature, make
sure people know, that's how you're working. So people,
because then people know not to contact you or that Friday,
because usually, they can respond actually on the Monday
instead, you know, it's not normally, that we always have,
we will have moments in work where there's, there's, we just,
we usually really need to get your head down and get stuff
done. But most of the time, it's not like that, and stuff can
wait into the Monday, but it is tricky, and without society kind
of wholeheartedly adopting that, you know, across the board. And
so everyone's kind of knows that that's the new work pattern,
then you aren't going to have those issues. So there is a
level of discipline, but we don't really ever find it, it
takes that much. And we will have it on own our email
signatures, we will have, you know, our standard working days
are Monday to Thursday, some people know that I think,
Zoe Amar: So which companies are doing this especially well,
through your work. Who have you seen Joe, that's implemented
this really effectively?
Joe Ryle: That's a good question. I mean, it's always
the best case. Best case, and they're always the ones where
there's not real amount of time has been put in. So we've
started consultation beforehand, to really sit down with staff
talk through their hopes, their fears in and try and work
through some of those as much as possible before actually
adopting it to really include them in the process. So they're
really built into the kind of journey and Friends of the Earth
actually, the NGO you may have heard of, they've just moved to
a four day work week. And you know, they took their time over
I think they took between six months to a year in terms of the
senior HR managers and, and senior management really
considering and thinking about how it's going to work, then
having a full consultation process of all the different
departments to see how it was gonna work. And they didn't come
into it, saying, This is how we're doing it, and everyone's
gonna have this day off. And in the end, they have ended up
because through their consultation, they've ended up
with half of their staff having Monday's off and half the staff
having Friday's off. And they've done it that way. But yeah,
that's one recent example. It's been successful.
Paul Thomas: And they're doing, I read this week. And I think
I've got a friend and colleague who lives in Lisbon and talked
about how they were talking about a trial in Portugal. And
now they've instigated it, haven't they, which is really
interesting across many organisations and businesses out
in Portugal. And an interesting thing sort of related comment to
that is the article I was reading was in an American
publication, and they were talking about the huge influx of
young Americans to Portugal for that very reason, which I found
fascinating.
Joe Ryle: I didn't know about that. That's funny, they just
come for the four day week, even though it's just a trial.
Therefore, typically, companies it's funny. But yeah, I think
that does show how popular it is. And I mean, we think things
about here, we should look at the USA in terms of working
hours. I mean, I don't think we even get much paid holiday in
America. So definitely, things are worse over there. So I'm not
surprised that they're desperate, but whatever it is,
you know, is a conversation which has been taking off all
over the world, including in America, we've seen a couple of
states advocating for this. And legislation being pushed through
the Congress as well. So it's definitely a conversation which
is taking off and yeah, in Scotland and in Portugal, in
Spain. There's government pilots starting this year, and
obviously we had a was a big pilot. And this took place in
Iceland, which again, was very successful results in almost the
entire population in Iceland moving to a shorter working
weeks. That's the country that's gonna burst ahead on the journey
and then another notable, like high, you know, multinational
companies, as well, Microsoft in Japan are trialling it, Unilever
are trialling it in their Australian and New Zealand
offices at the moment. So it's definitely yeah, which is
exciting just to see that taking off across the globe. Because
it's kind of funny when you think about like this nine to
five, five day working week is still the norm across the
western world, even though economies are very different
that seems to be the standard.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it to see how
different countries are approaching this stuff. And it's
fascinating you mentioning Portugal because Paul I remember
we discuss something about this, didn't we? During one of the
lockdowns how they're quite progressive on things like
working from home policies, and I think they also have that
digital nomad visa as well. So you talked there, Joe about this
kind of societal shift that needs to happen in different
countries for the full day week to really be implemented across
the board. Is that what the require is to have this real
legislative firepower behind it to truly embed it?
Joe Ryle: I think so, you know, if you think about the nature of
the global economy now, you know, it is global people are
working with people all over the world all the time. And I think
even more so now, the move toward zoom and, you know,
working here for different platforms, so it wouldn't be
better if it's because we've actually worked with quite a few
kind of global corporations as well, organisations to have
offices all over the world. And it's like, you know, that it's
going to be difficult to implement four day week in one
place, but there are other partners are working five or six
days a week in another country, they work all the time. So yeah,
we'd hoped they would kind of spread like that. I think it has
gotten to that stage now where, you know, workers, particularly
in this country, you know, a lot of workers are burnt out, and
they're stressed, they're overworked, and a lot of them
aren't being paid very well either, you know, like working
long hours, for very little pay. It's not really it's no way to
live. And there is a sense that people are desperate for change,
really. I think that applies across more broadly across the
globe, not just in the UK, I think it's a problem across
western economies.
Paul Thomas: So if I am a leader, and I want to implement
this, number one, I can pick up the phone, get in touch with you
and the campaign and get some help to do it. But role
modelling has always been really important to me, I've just
remember I've just reflected on a story that I heard when I was
working for a firm of accountants. And the Floor Plan
was such that the lifts were sort of central to the building,
and there were two, it was circular. So you could move
around the office in different ways. And there was one partner
so you know, very, very high up in the organisation, but had a
small child that he needed to pick up from nursery. And rather
than walk past his team to get to the lift, he'd walk the other
way to get to the lift on the days where he had to go and pick
his child up from nursery, which I felt was really sad, and also
not great role modelling. So how do you help leaders who need to
sort of step up and make sure that they're leading by example,
Joe Ryle: Well, the best thing is to actually make sure that if
to actually do that?
you're a senior management level that you actually do it as well,
because we have seen that a few times where the rest of the
workforce is doing realistically, it's their four
day week, but they're kind of managers are coming in on
Fridays. And it actually, that sets a bad example, because then
as a more junior employee, you know, you feel like we are not,
you're not working as hard as they are. So I would say to
speak to it as much as possible for management. And you know, of
course, that may be trickier in the first couple of months, or
even then there's always a period of adjustment when
moving. So it's, you wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't
necessarily expect everyone to have four days every single week
for the first two, three to six months. But by the end of that
it tends to be around six months, by the end of that six
month period, the whole organisation does change the way
it's working. And it does feel more natural for everyone. And
sticking to it is important. Yeah, also I think just as I was
hinting at before, you're not dictating too much the kind of
terms of everything. And we so we've definitely worked with one
quite big company who their parameters were that, you know,
you can have the four day week, if you're meeting these very
specific performance targets. If they're not being met, then
you're going to lose it. So there was one department who
lost the four day week for a month during their six month
trial because they weren't meeting their performance
targets. And then they put it back afterwards. But it just it
created a not very nice culture in the workplace. And we
wouldn't recommend it that way.
Paul Thomas: We'll include some stories in the show notes, and
anything you want to share as well, please do send through but
one of the one I noticed was that, and I think I picked this
up from the Daily Mail, which was always helpful, who this
council is in trouble because they have implemented a four day
a week and everyone's really upset about it. But one of the
things that they said from the headline I read was four day
week trials in public sector in South Cambridgeshire. And it
says they will test the 32 hour a week on the principle that
staff will work more intensely and productively. And that's
that word intensely that really, really sort of hits home. It's
like well, yeah, you can have this but you know, regiment,
regiment regiment?
Joe Ryle: Yeah, I mean, I think it was only the Daily Mail that
were angry about that Council. I don't think anyone else was it,
you know, definitely because we worked with them on that. And
there definitely hasn't been any complaints from residents. You
know, they're trying to, the council actually trying to save
money through doing it. And from what we've seen, it's actually
worked very well and it's actually meeting all of their
performance targets. So, but yeah, I think that is a problem
and perhaps to be frank, that may, you know, I'll be honest,
maybe mistakes we've made as well in the campaign like the,
the principles in which we communicated the UK pilot. We
were working on that with a few other organisations was the kind
of 180/100 model, which is about achieving 100% productivity and
80% of the time, while maintaining pay. And actually,
we've moved away from that now, because we don't think that's
actually very, very helpful framing. It is about, you know,
people will be more productive when they're working less, but
it's not, it's also about working differently and changing
the way you work. And so we do think that kind of undulating
100 isn't quite communicated before the weakest link. And in
some cases, it will be about changing job descriptions to
remove some tasks that aren't particularly useful, really. So
I think sometimes, you know, maybe put the communication a
little bit wrong there. But we're starting to be clear on
how this works and this works pretty well.
Paul Thomas: And don't believe the Daily Mail.
Joe Ryle: And don't believe the Daily Mail, yeah, that's always
a good move.
Zoe Amar: So Joe, what challenges do you see ahead for
your campaign? So we talked a lot about where the campaign is
now, but what challenges and perhaps what opportunities and
trends do you see ahead?
Joe Ryle: The main challenge is trying to persuade more and more
organisations to move to a four day week, while society is still
so dominated by a five day week. So the challenge, there really
is persuading the government and obviously, probably going to
have a change of government in the next year to 18 months,
persuading the government at the time to really take this
seriously, and really be involved in this, involved in
coordination, because without government involvement, it's
gonna be very hard to see this kind of roll out across the
economy. So I think there's gonna be a big challenge in the
next couple of years. But we're quite confident, you know, one
Is there a way I could actually make the four day week a bit
area we haven't touched upon is like, automation, artificial
intelligence, new technology, I mean, all of this is going to
make the workforce more productive. But it also is going
to, you know, reduce the amount of work and jobs that are
available. And so from our point of view, the best way of dealing
with that is a shorter working week. So you're sharing the kind
of diminishing amount of work equally across the economy. And
in that way, we can all benefit from artificial intelligence and
automation, it means we don't have to be scared of it. So
definitely, in terms of opportunities, we think that is
going to be more and more of an opportunity. And if you think
about the NHS, you know, there's ways in which artificial
intelligence and new technology is being rolled out across the
NHS to make, for example, operations more efficient and
productive, which should reduce the amount of work so that I
think that's a huge opportunity again.
easier to do?
Yeah, definitely. I mean, someone was saying the other
day, you know, we should have, we should already have a four
day weekend, and AI should give us a free day. But I don't think
we're quite there yet, in terms of advocating for a three day
week, one day at a time. But yeah, I think definitely, you
know, there was a Nobel Prize winning economist who said,
about a month ago, he said, you know, artificial intelligence
should mean, finally workers get a four day week. I definitely
agree with him on that.
Zoe Amar: Amazing, Joe, thank you so much. This has been
really inspiring. I'm sure lots of leaders listening to this
will find it so useful for helping them plan for a full day
week. And you've certainly got Paul and I thinking that we must
try and work a four day week sooner rather than later. So
thank you, for all your practical advice and for giving
us such a great insight into the trends out there.
Joe Ryle: That's alright. Yeah, you should, you should
definitely give it a go. I always, you know, I always say
why not? Give it a go for a couple of months and see how it
goes? And what's the worst that can happen? You try it for three
months and see how it goes. And yeah, thanks for having me on.
Paul Thomas: No, thank you.
Zoe Amar: Our pleasure.
Paul Thomas: Thank you very much indeed.
Thank you so much to Joe for coming on to the podcast.
Fascinating look at how we make that work life blend work for us
all. And we'd be really interested to know from all of
our listeners how you're embracing the idea, or not with
the four day week or the nine day fortnight. If you are, your
stories, please.
Zoe Amar: We'd love to hear about that. We're now going off
on our summer holidays. So the next episode will be in
September, which was like a long way off, but we'll be here in a
flash. In the meantime, you can find us on Twitter we're at
@Startsatthetop1 and you can also email us at
startsatthetop@gmail.com
Paul Thomas: And if you listen to us on Apple podcasts or
anywhere else that you can rate and review, please do, all those
ratings, and particularly the reviews help us to gather more
listeners. Tell us what you like about the podcast. And we will
come back to you speak to you again in September. Thanks for
listening.
Zoe Amar: See you in September.