Zoe Amar 0:04 We are delighted that this episode of Starts at the Top is sponsored by Arvato CRM Solutions. Arvato CRM Solutions designs and delivers award winning customer service, business process outsourcing, and digital and intelligent automation solutions with some of the world's most respected brands, as well as innovative charity and public sector clients. They partner with clients to help them define their customer experience and transformation strategies by implementing the right technology, people and processes to improve their customer journey while driving new efficiencies and helping them prepare for the future. To find out more about how Arvato CRM Solutions could help an organisation like yours, and to receive a free no obligation chat visit arvato.co.uk/walesairambulance Samuel Kasumu 1:06 We're gonna need to utilise everybody's skills and talents, which it also includes people who may feel like outsiders for various reasons, we cannot afford to have certain groups not been able to flourish. Paul Thomas 1:27 Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top, our podcasts about leadership, digital and change. I'm Paul Thomas. Zoe Amar 1:34 And I'm Zoe Amar. Our podcast is all about leadership and brings you interviews with leaders who we believe are driving a positive change in the world. Paul Thomas 1:43 Change comes in many forms. And we're equally interested in speaking to leaders who are making incremental change and shifting the dial within their own organisations, as we are about talking, and speaking about huge systemic changes that impact the world of work. Our driving force of this podcast is to share those stories across sectors and industries so that we can all learn from each other. And in today's episode, we're going to share our discussion with Samuel Kasumu, one time adviser to Boris Johnson, and author of The Power of The Outsider a Journey of Discovery. Zoe what did you make of Samuels book, Zoe Amar 2:14 I thought it was fascinating, really, really interesting. I think it's a great read for any leaders who are thinking about marginalised groups in their organisations and how they can make sure that they really do truly create a culture of belonging. And I think it's just a really helpful route to understand what an outsider is, because some of your talks about how outsiders come in all kinds of shapes and sizes, there are different kinds of being an outsider. And he describes that at the start of the book, he talks about different ways in which you can help more people, all these different types of people who may feel like they're outsiders feel included. So I thought it was really illuminating. And really, really interesting. Paul Thomas 3:02 This is one of those episodes where I think my role is one of learning. Having said that, I thought this was a fascinating read, and one that shone a light on what it means to come from a relatively privileged working class background, but still find yourself in a situation within government where you are seen as a total outsider, which eventually led to Samuel leaving. And I thought his honesty and insight was inspiring. I mean, I really liked the book, and I would recommend it, but I thought it came to life a bit more for me through our conversation, if that makes sense. Zoe Amar 3:30 Yeah I agree. I think it was so interesting to hear the story behind the book, as it were, and to explore how he had navigated his own role as an outsider and how he came to see that as a real strength because it's helped him be innovative and also stay true to his values. So I really enjoyed talking to him. And I think it's a really fascinating read that anyone who's interested in EDI, which I imagine is hopefully most people should definitely pick that up and have a look at it. Paul Thomas 4:01 Yeah, and as we were just discussing, before we recorded I did reflect that, actually, I think the the idea of existing at the edges of an organisation or existing at the edges of conversation, sometimes in the role of observer is often a very, very strong position to put yourself into so you can see where your skills and where you can add value rather than being sort of entrenched in a business centre in an organisational sense and trenched in a in a single team within an organisation. And they say, you know, he said Innovation often comes from the edges. So I think it's interesting to take that view. And the book really explores that well. Zoe Amar 4:40 Paul, if you don't mind, I'm just going to challenge that slightly just because I think that I think there is value in being an outsider and I don't think I could have done the things that I've done in my career, for example, without being an outsider and having the benefit of quite often looking at things from a very different perspective just because of you who I am. And my demographic. I also think there is and we explore this in the interview itself, I do think there can be a very human cost to being an outsider. And I know that you and I have had talked about that before. So from my own experience, going to many meetings over the years, where I am one of very few people of colour in the room, and sometimes one of very few women in the room. And I do think that's a big challenge in the world of digital. So I think that, I think what really came through in the book and also the fascinating conversation with Samuel is that, yes, there is an element of, of privilege, in some ways to being an outsider, because you get that unique perspective and things and that strength that comes from looking at things differently. There's also a lot to navigate. And there are, there are barriers as well, there are barriers, and it does take some strength of character, I think and a support network. And Samuel talks a lot about the value of sponsorship and mentorship and the responsibility that organisations have to be aware of how they open those doors, to make sure that people have a fair crack at things everyone has a chance to contribute. Paul Thomas 6:20 I was specifically thinking about innovation, but also you know, when you mentioned EDI, I think it's really important that businesses or any organisation puts a real focus on purposely making EDI happen as well not just sort of reflecting or, you know, where are we and where should we be? How can we make things better, but actively going and pursuing the agenda and making it a core part of absolutely everything they do, you know, give people a seat at the table. Don't expect them to sit at the edges of that table and chip in from the outside, but give them a seat at the table as well. So yeah, I completely agree. Zoe Amar 6:56 And maybe that's something we need to explore in our next season. Because I think there's some really interesting things I'm hearing at the moment and not just in charities about how because of the pressures of cost of living, or you have the challenges that organisations are facing a moment that perhaps EDI isn't quite the priority that it was a year ago. So I think it'd be quite interesting to delve into that. What's changed? How are things progressing? Who's still really committed to this and what can we learn from them? Paul Thomas 7:27 Yeah, we certainly don't want to rest on our laurels on that point. Zoe Amar 7:32 And if anyone knows anyone out there who they think would be a great guest or guests on those topics, please just let us know you can contact us on the socials or email us. Paul Thomas 7:43 So now for our interview with Samuel Kasumu. Zoe Amar 7:48 We are very excited to welcome Samuel Kasumu to our podcast today, Samuel is an award winning social entrepreneur, commentator and strategist. He is the founder of inclusive boards and executive headhunting firm, and has been involved in setting up and growing a number of initiatives to support the progress of Britain's black and minority ethnic population. He has won numerous awards for his work, including Barclays Business Enterprise Award, the CBI's Young Star of Enterprise Award and entrepreneur champion of the year, he is the author of The Power of the Outsider, his first book, and it's about his experiences of being most senior black advisor in Boris Johnson's government, along with the value that outsiders bring, and how difference can be a huge force for good, Samuel, welcome to Starts at the Top. We're so happy to have you here. Samuel Kasumu 8:43 Thank you for having me Zoe and Paul. Zoe Amar 8:45 Congratulations on the book, we found it a really interesting read. And there's a lot to dig into here, which is very relevant to a lot of the themes we've explored on this podcast before. Can we kick off with you describing what an outsider is? And what the different types of outsider are? Samuel Kasumu 9:07 Yeah, sure. So when I set out to write the book, I tried to make sure that it didn't necessarily have a conclusive definition of what it meant to be an outsider, because I kind of felt like it meant different things to different people in different places for different reasons. And so by the time I'd finished the book, so starting with the end, I suppose, I realised that the one thing that every outsider has in common is that they're set apart. And the one, the one thing that you could add to a definition that would allow people to, I guess be rooted in their outsiderness is that they're set apart for a reason. And so that's the definition I use. An outsider is somebody that is different from a group or an environment, but they're different, for a reason, they're not just different, they're different, because there's a value that they bring. And in terms of the types of outsiders, there are many different types of outsiders, you can feel like a demographic outsider or a certain outsider, because of something that is an objective fact, it could be the colour of your skin, it could be your gender, it could be the football team you support, it could be where you went to school, the area you grew up in. So a social demographic outsider, is somebody who is an outsider, because of something that you know, is a fact, you could also be an outsider, because although you might look the same or sound the same or be the same objectively, as everybody else, for some reason, you feel a bit different. So you can be a psychological outsider. And that is an outsider that you might find in a family, or contexts where you are, you know, you have the same mother and father, as all your siblings, but you're the quiet one, or the introvert, or there might be something that just makes you feel like although you might be like everybody else in your environment, you are different. It could be because you've suffered trauma that nobody else knows you've had, it could be because you have some form of dysphoria. So, you know, everybody in the room might be a particular gender and you might feel like actually, you know, for various reasons, that is not the gender that you feel most comfortable, within. So that's the second type of outsider. And then the third type of outsider and this is the one where perhaps you have the most agency is the tactical outsider. So, this is an outsider that sets themselves apart from a group in order to obtain some form of advantage or because there is a feeling of disconnect or unsatisfaction with a particular group or discourse. So, so an example of that is my former boss, Boris Johnson, you know, he went to Eton, went to Oxford, was in the Bullingdon Club, a high flying journalist, in many respects an insider. But in order for him to win his view, obtain the highest office, he chose to position himself as an outsider in many ways, and I guess most famously in choosing to lead a campaign to leave the European Union. Another example is Nigel Farage, is of course somebody who people view as an anti establishment figure. But again, someone who is from a relatively poor background, very well connected in high society you know, he's mates with Rupert Murdoch, etc, etc. But he has positioned himself tactically in order for him to push a particular agenda there. I guess we can assume his passionate about. And then of course there are left wing examples outsiders, I'm just giving you some really right wing ones but anyway, Oh, yeah. So there are three main types or categories of outsiders so it can be a demographic outsider, psychological outsider, tactical outside, the interesting thing is, you can be all of those things at once. One thing that they all bring together is they all have a value that they bring. And then the other thing, which I guess we might explore later is, there was always the potential of a feeling of isolation, even if you tactical outside. So it's not saying, well, you know, just because this type has so much agency, they're less likely to feel like they're alone or lonely or isolated, that religion is very natural, very common. Zoe Amar 13:19 And that's something which I think you explore so courageously in the book, and something, that really resonates with me as a woman of colour, because I think I've spent a lot of my life feeling as an outsider. So I was wondering if we could compare notes for a minute, and perhaps if you could tell us a bit about when you felt like an outsider and how that feels. Samuel Kasumu 13:44 The book kind of centres around my experience in Downing Street. So when I entered Number 10, I was quite different from the rest of my colleagues in the sense that I wasn't part of Boris Johnson's City Hall gang. So when he was mayor of London, I didn't work with him then, I never played a leading role in leaving the European Union. So I wasn't part of the vote leave set. So Dominic Cummings, Lee Cain, etc. So I didn't come in with them. And I wasn't a legacy higher. So a legacy higher in the sense that, I didn't work full time in Downing street for Theresa May, or David Cameron. So they were essentially the three sets of people that entered Downing Street with Boris Johnson in 2019. I mean, I knew a few people there, of course, but I wasn't part of any of those groups. So I was an outsider, you know, by default, when I walked in, one of the very few people that came in, because, well because I could actually, you know, bring a specific type of expertise. In addition to that, you know, yes, I'm a black man. And I was the only black advisor in Downing street for a long time, also, from a working class background, didn't go to Oxford and Cambridge. So I was very different. And when I first arrived, it wasn't something that I had much time to think about. And actually, for most of my time, in Downing street, there wasn't much time for me to think about it. But it's only after I left, that I realised that perhaps I needed to probably explore what that experience was like, and why my outsiderness may have impacted how I was functioning in that environment. Zoe Amar 15:16 And you describe that experience of being an outsider and ultimately the impact that had on you, I think, very movingly, and very openly as well in chapter 15 of the book. And what really struck me about that chapter in which you describe why you left Downing Street is that the human cost of being an outsider. So I was wondering if you could tell us a bit more about what you describe in that chapter. Why you left? And the toll that being an outsider can sometimes take? Samuel Kasumu 15:51 Yeah, it's, you know, throughout the book, I mean, towards the latter part, but throughout the book, I tried to start with the values first perspective. So we're actually, let's first understand that being an outsider is not a bad thing, right. But at the same time, when you're trying to function in certain environments, it can have a significant impact on your ability to flourish if you feel isolated. Or if you feel like you can't be your full self. Or if you feel like you're not quite sure how to navigate certain spaces. And so when I was in Downing Street, there were times when, of course, I felt like, well, I know why I'm here. Technically, I represent the majority, because most people don't go to Oxford or Cambridge. Most people were not from the upper echelons, or have family members from top echelons in society. So there were times I try to remind myself that actually, although I might be an outsider in here. Technically, I represent more people than most of the folks in a similar position to myself. But that didn't mean that it didn't take its toll on me. And some of the challenges I had was around not necessarily being able to communicate, how I was feeling or the things I was going through. Because there was always this feeling that perhaps I needed to make sure that I could demonstrate I could hold my own or I didn't want to push certain buttons that would result in me maybe being even further isolated, is a political environment, loads of really powerful people. And the last thing you want is not to be able to progress or or push on in your work because some people feel like, well, he's a bit too different, or he's not really on our side, you know. So those are some of the things I was having to navigate. In addition to that everybody in life has their own personal challenges in their own environments, whether it's at home or wherever. And so trying to balance the issues at work with you know, the life of life was probably the reason that led to me eventually departing. Zoe Amar 17:55 Yeah, absolutely. And we thought you just did scrappy told the story of that in such a moving basic human way, in that final part of the book, and as you say, I think those two realities can coexist, right? I mean, if I could press a button and not be an outsider, I wouldn't do that. Because I think it's been really formative, what I've done, I think it's been very formative for what you've done, and you've achieved as well. But equally, there are moments when you do feel isolated, right? I mean, those two things do coexist in the reality of a lot of people from different backgrounds in the workplace. And I think what you described so well, at the end of the book, it's that sense of, you're kind of doing two jobs, aren't you? You're doing in your case, and particularly, you're doing this incredibly challenging job during a time of national crisis, it meets the global upheaval of the pandemic, and you're also trying to forge this blueprint for the future, aren't you as well about what the new workplace could look like, and the place of people who've got different backgrounds within it. Samuel Kasumu 19:04 Yeah, the challenge is particularly in the western, we can talk about in the UK, we've never really been, in this moment before, where you have so many different types of people, and different spaces that were the preserve of elites. And so, you know, more people going to university, we can have a debate around how we feel about that. But nonetheless, there's people who are going to education and apparent for the first time in their family, there are people who... we've never looked this way, in terms of our ethnic makeup. And so, you know, there were places that were always full of like the Foreign Office, which when I met, you know, in the book I speak to Samir Puri was a really high flying individual and in the Foreign Office, and there were never, there was never people like him, you know, for 30 odd years ago. And even now, it's still a very tough place to get into if you're, if you're not from a particular type of background. But we're making progress. And as a result of that progress, we don't necessarily all know how to function. And that is not just on people who are part of elite groups, but also people who are entering for the first time so everybody is trying to figure it out. We're not necessarily afforded the space, to be honest about that, you know, and so what I tried, my best to do in the book is give people that space and say, Look, actually, these are really important questions. We don't all know the answers. And unfortunately, we all have to sound like we know the answers, because that's what society demands. But actually, maybe we just need to try and understand people a bit better. In fact, maybe we just need to try to understand ourselves a bit better first. Because if we can understand ourselves, then maybe we might be a bit more gracious towards folks who will inevitably get it wrong. The reason why I call, you know, this subheading is a journey of discovery is perfect. We're all on this journey of discovery. But because of things like social media and other pressures is just very difficult for us to have a sense of humanity in this day and age. And, and I suppose that's probably part of my broader mission. Now, I'm going to try and find a way to help people with opposing views to just at least try and understand themselves a bit, a bit better. Paul Thomas 21:14 Do you think it's possible to do that within Westminster? Do you think that's the, possibly the sort of the worst environment? We interviewed Ian Dunt, about his book, how Westminster works and why it doesn't. And he described this, this role of the sort of specialist advisors SPADs within Westminster as being these people that are absolutely necessary to the diversity of thinking within government, because government ministers MPs are of a specific type that's really hard to, to infiltrate, I guess. But especially its advisors are there, but I mean, I just, you know, go around the houses of it, I come from my recent work background is working for professional services. And I've always been quite taken by the fact that in a partner led organisation, the partners assume this role of responsibility, almost like the MPs of Westminster, where they, they sort of take the roles, the sort of leadership roles in places like HR and marketing and functions like that, despite the fact that they don't have any specialist knowledge at all. So into that environment, if you're putting yourself in that environment as the specialist advisor, do you think is that role doomed to failure? Is it short term go in and make an impact? Or can you really affect real change? Samuel Kasumu 22:33 It's good question Paul, I always joke, you know, I lost to Dominic Cummings, Lee cane and a bunch of other folks. But you know, the turnover is, is relatively high because it's so high pressured and everybody who is a Special Advisor, particularly Downing street has a lot of power. And so you're having to navigate each other more than you're trying to navigate ministers, etc, to be honest, particularly in the environment I was in, which wasn't the most functional. I think you can be successful as a special advisor. But a lot of things need to align. You know, I think most people, whether they like me or not, or they agreed with me leaving or not would attest to the fact like, you know, I was pretty good at my job. But that was mainly because I've had experiences that other people didn't, I was just very, just very used to doing stuff and not waiting around for your conversations. And that's why I ended up leaving on the vaccine deployment, because some of the others would have probably just been more interested in having policy conversations, whereas I was quite keen to drive the campaign forward, we would drive it like a campaign, make sure we understood different groups and the variables across the country that would have led to being successful, then you can be successful at the job, you need to have a good Prime Minister, you need to have good Secretaries of State who understand their role. You need to have decent people who have the right skills in place. But I guess, separate to that, can Westminister function well? I think the answer is yes. But again, it goes back to having good people, you know, politicians often only focus their minds on the next election, and even a half decent Prime Minister will try and get really tough things done in year one and year two, so that they can then, you know, refocus on the next election. And so, you know, most politicians are so focused on the five year cycle in this country, that it's very difficult for us to have people who have a long term view and people who are trying to make the case for doing the right thing. And I think that's what we need more, we need more people who are able to say, well, actually, you know, is this really gonna be the best thing to do for the country, you know, looking 10, 20 years from now, and we don't have people maybe... I don't wanna say smarter than I thought maybe talented enough in Westminster to do that. Well, right now, to be honest. Paul Thomas 24:56 I've got an ongoing fascination between the differences between specialists and generalists and read quite a lot around that subject as listeners to the podcast will probably be bored with me talking about David Epstein's range. But there's this sort of this constant sort of in the writing around the subject, it's always about specialists versus generalists are generalists versus specialists, you know, the two things, you're either one or the other. And I see myself more as a generalist with specialist leanings, that have areas I specialise more in than perhaps others. But you know, it's a general role that I could perform. Do you think those two can coexist? Is one sort of outweighed or overruled within Westminster? Do you think is? Do we need to sort of talk more about generalism and specialism combining and working together? And is that easy to achieve? Do you think? Samuel Kasumu 25:50 Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think there are many, particularly at the very highest levels, I don't think there are many specialists to be honest in Westminster. I mean, it's very difficult for you to in the current, current way Westminster functions for you to get very far being a specialist, because a lot of generalists are able to utilise certain skills to get very far. So for example, I mean, I probably call myself a generalist, but the one thing I bring is leadership. And so, you know, when I'm in Downing Street, you know, after a day or two, trying to stop getting lost in the building, you know, my focus was on like, how do I lead? How do I make sure I'm in charge here? This is, this is how I'm most comfortable. And so that's pretty much how I did it with a two year period. But special advisors aside, big issue in Westminster is for you to become a member of parliament, usually, you know, I would say, for most, most parties, everything, you know, the Conservative Party you need to go knock on those doors. You need to go and make calls at the campaign headquarters you need to go to around to some dinners, and you need to get some people knowing you. And should that really be enough? I don't think so. And so we end up with a bunch of mediocre generalists not necessarily generalists who also bring in leadership capacity or corporate experience or experience in education, you just end up with folks who've been knocking on doors for the last three or four years is who you get, and with the labour movement is slightly different. Because usually, you need to be a member of a union, or more often than not, but it's still kind of at the same. So you're a member of the Union, you know, do the members of the union in that particular seat know who you are, you know, are the unions backing you? But what does that have to do with, you know, whether or not you bring specialists or even, you know, high level generalist skills to the table. So, Westminster doesn't work. Would you expect because Westminster is full of insiders who, you know, might have some slight differences, but they've all taken the same path in. And when you have someone that's outsider who ends up in Westminster as a member of parliament, you know, usually it's kind of like, some kind of weird accident. And sometimes people who vote regretted because they're like this person is far too disruptive. How did they get here? You know, how do they slip through vetting? Who is outspoken, etc. So yeah, it does need to change. But I think the quality of the people that we want to get into Westminster needs to change. Just one more thing on that, you know, a lot of good people don't want to go into politics, because they see how politicians are treated, and how they treat each other. And so that's probably another thing that needs to be explored or confronted, you know, most of us been attacked on social media, but also, you know, put the blissful class finding ways to attack each other because they're so focused on on trying to win. Paul Thomas 28:40 The impossible job. Zoe Amar 28:42 A really difficult job. But something that takes us on really nicely to some of the other themes in the book about the advantages of being an outsider and the many strengths that outsiders bring. Can you tell us a bit more about that, because I find your exploration of those issues really fascinating. Samuel Kasumu 29:00 Yes. So you know, going to meet the different outsiders that helped me to navigate this journey, I made sure I went to visit them with a very open mind. And actually, some of the things that you see around the values that bring was purely based on reflections from listening to them speak and listening to their stories and their journey. So you know, outsiders can stand out, which is a very important thing when you're trying to either send a signal, or you're trying to inspire others. And of course, the outsiders can inspire people from different backgrounds to know that certain things are possible. They can challenge orthodoxy. You know, sometimes when things are not going the way that they need to go, bring in an outsider, some fresh perspective, with some fresh energy can often get things moving, like I don't know, if you have a sports team that is not performing very well. You can either change the whole team, which might be very expensive, you know, not everyone has deep pockets like Chelsea Football Club, or you can bring in a new manager who might bring some fresh energy and drive some more value out of the existing team. They can heal divisions. And this is such an important thing for me, I think. But we society today there's so many different divisions based on cultural issues, or whatever, what have you. But the best way, in my opinion, to build bridges is to try and bring people who are outsiders who can actually have maybe not as much skin in the game or a bit of credibility on both sides to, to build bridges. So there's so many things that outsiders can bring, if they are allowed, or they can grasp the opportunity to flourish. Zoe Amar 30:37 Yeah, that totally resonates with me as a woman of colour. I mean, I wouldn't change it for anything, I think it I think in the right way, in the right environment, it can actually be really liberating to be an outsider can't it? Samuel Kasumu 30:52 Yeah, and it's about two things. One is recognising the value you bring, I think should always start with you. And that's, I think that's my challenge to a lot of people in society. Now it's okay, fine we can talk about individuals and institutions that need to do better, we can all agree they need to do better. But first for you to fulfil your full potential. And for you to feel a sense of a psychological safety, you need to also make sure that you recognise your value your first it's got to start with you. And that's the challenge, you know. And so yeah, I think that's important. And then once you've done that, that gives you the confidence to be able to really flourish and challenge folks in the right way, but from a very strong starting point. And for institutions as individuals and as a country. The challenge is, we are struggling with things like productivity. We have an ageing population, we have really big challenges that we are not grappling with very well as a country today. And yes, we're in the middle of a cost of living crisis. And yes, we've had a pandemic, but those things have only highlighted the challenges that were already there. And for us to really progress as a country, we're going to need to utilise everybody's skills and gifts, talents, which it also includes people who may feel like outsiders for various reasons, we cannot afford to have certain groups not being able to flourish. And so selfishly, we need to make sure everybody can go as far as they can. Zoe Amar 32:25 Yeah, 100% support that. And I love your point there about people beginning that journey by realising their strengths and their values, what they bring to the table. It feels like there's something supporting that as well around self acceptance for anyone who is right at the beginning of their journey with that process. How did you do it Samuel, what would you advise others who are in that situation? Samuel Kasumu 32:51 It's a really good question. I suppose. I mean, before I was in Downing Street, I've always felt like I was an outsider, because I've always just decided to do things that make me feel comfortable. So, you know, going to a particularly University was because well I just felt like doing it, my dad thought I was crazy. But you know, we are who we are, or choosing when I left university not to go and get a job and set up an enterprise these things that I've always felt quite natural to me. So I suppose the first thing I would say is, if possible, try and find things that are very natural for you to do. And see if you can be afforded the opportunity to do that. And that might not be through work, it might be through volunteering, or what have you. Because the more you're able to utilise your skills in ways that add value to your community or society, then the more you're going to get the confidence to grow in that area. So that's first thing I would say. Secondly, I would say is everybody who has progressed in life has had help, you know, whether you are somebody who's born into privilege, and you know, the help is on your doorstep, or upstairs or whatever, or more, or an uncle or an aunt, or whatever, you know, you're suddenly from an underrepresented background, who's had a mentor or a teacher who believed in you, or you access an internship somehow, or what have you. Everybody has folks who help them. And so if you want to be in a position where you can get that help, then you need to also be someone willing to give that help, too. And so I'd say that, make sure you're giving back, make sure you're mentoring yourself. So that, you know, you understand the dynamics of how to get the help you need. Personal Branding is, of course, very, very important. So what is what you bring to the table? And you know, if I was to go on your social media, what story am I gonna get from viewing your online presence? So how can I see that you are the leader in your space. And I suppose the final thing I would say, is just, you know, life's short. So try your best to embrace every moment, you know, this, this is a wonderful country, the United Kingdom, but we have, people don't feel very happy right now. And I think one of the reasons why they don't feel very happy, is because they didn't feel like they can be themselves or they can flourish. And so, you know, try and find opportunities for you to feel like you've been able to be yourself. And if it's too big ask in your current place of work, then start in environments that might not be work, you know, go wherever you can to build that confidence, and take it step by step. Zoe Amar 35:29 So if we bring those themes back to the workplace and the role of leaders and employers, because I think this takes us very nicely on to one of the other things you describe in the book about the value that facilitators can bring, you know, brokering those relationships between different groups in the workplace, or whatever environment it might be, what role should facilitators play? What should leaders be doing out there to bring different groups together? Samuel Kasumu 35:55 Yeah, we hear it all the time. But it's true leadership matters, you know, you start, you have to set the tone, you have to be the standard bearer, you have to be the one that is being very explicit about what is important in an environment. And so, you know, if you're in an environment, and the leader doesn't really say very explicitly that, well, this is a place that's going to be inclusive, we don't do bullying, we don't do inappropriate remarks, we need to make sure that we are embracing folks from different backgrounds and making people feel welcome, then it's very easy for that not to be the case. And values, our values can be either expressed or implied, actual or aspirational. And in reality, they should probably be all four. And so you know, when you walk into an environment, you should be able to tell what kind of values or culture you have just by how people treat each other. But it also helps for it to be written somewhere. And then in terms of your values, yeah, they should be actual to an extent, but you should always aspire to want to be better. And so you should also be quite aspirational with the environment you want to have. And that's, that must flow from the leadership. And there's also a need for it to be quite constant. You can't just say things on day one and say goodbye, have a good one. Because we're all human beings. We're all you know, we're all imperfect. We all have good days and bad days, for various reasons. You never really know what somebody's going through outside of a working environment. And so there's a need to constantly remind people about the environment that you want to have. And then just remember the fact that actually inclusion is everybody's business. And when I say it's everybody's business, yes, it must start with the leadership. But everybody must take a proactive role in making sure that they are doing their bit to make sure people, including outsiders feel like they can flourish. So leaders play a huge role in terms of the role of the facilitator, as I said, you know, for us to go get anywhere in life, you know, somebody will always be responsible for opening the door or helping us out or giving us a chance. And that's the role of the facilitator, we must all play a role as facilitator. But when you are quite senior, you must play an even more proactive role. It's like constantly thinking, Okay, who can I help? Who can I support? Who can I give a chance, and your job is not necessarily to be responsible for the outcome. You know, we don't need to necessarily say, well, you know, if I gave Paul a helping hand, really, really, really, you know, embrace this opportunity and do well, actually, to a large extent, you know, the outcome is not necessarily a facilitators responsibility, but it's the responsibility to give the chance to give the opportunity, and hopefully, things will work out. And there's an inspirational story to tell as a result. Zoe Amar 38:36 Yeah, completely agree with all that, I think that's such an important thing for leaders to consider how they facilitate that bringing together of different communities in the workplace, and, and not to do it in a performative way, either to give it that intention, and real thought that you've described there. Paul Thomas 38:53 First of all, I was gonna say, I think, you know, a lot of the conversations we've had recently have been about the next generation coming into the workplace and not sort of seeing it in the same way that we perhaps do. So they are coming in and immediately looking for that evidence of what is this organisation for? What is it going to do? What are the values and do I share those values, and if they don't see that being reflected, they're not afraid to just walk away, they are not afraid to just sort of move on to the next, the next place, we can talk about having side hustles and moving from gig to gig, the gig economy and stuff like that, that sort of have a, almost like a negative connotation, but actually, it's a massive positive for most young people. So I think hopefully, it is changing. The last point I was going to make was sort of a silly one, really. But when I was reading the book, just before I went away on holiday, I was reflecting that this was a lot like superheroes, most superheroes are outsiders, and it brought to mind your sort of views around being an outsider, and bringing outsiders together was a bit like Professor X in the X Men where you have all of these different powers and responsibilities that are very different to the world around you that sort of mutant idea. But actually, when you bring them all together, and an act, but the one that really, really made me think was Batman, as you were talking just a few minutes ago, I was thinking, actually, this is quite right. You know, Batman, Bruce Wayne came from money, he was a huge part of the city of Gotham, where you know, where he was born, where his parents lived, and had a huge stake in the city, but found the power to make positive change within the city by becoming that outsider. And I think the Christopher Nolan films really, really play on that. How do you enact change by taking yourself completely out of the equation as he does through the second and third film. So that was, it was a reflection more than a question, but you know, do you see yourself as a superhero? Samuel Kasumu 41:01 Certainly not me, but that's great. Yeah. I mean, that's a really interesting perspective. And maybe, maybe if there's like a revision to the book, I'll add, I'll add Batman to it. It's really true. I mean, you're right is he's part of the establishment, but he separates himself for various reasons. And that's the thing about being an outsider, it's so fluid. You could be somebody who looks like me, but feel like an insider very much, you know, I was talking about Kwasi Kwarteng, who became Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the best part five minutes. But yeah, very much more comfortable in certain environments than I am. And so it's such a fluid interesting science, but it's an important one. And if people can understand the phenomenon more, it will just allow them to not just understand themselves, but be able to understand how and why society functions the way it does. That was, I mean, I was so surprised that this the subject matter was just so under, under researched. And the journey has just begun for me, because the book came out in June. But the hope is that over the next two or three or four years, we can really socialise the subject. And as you mentioned, a lot of younger people, the next generation are going into working environments, and they have so many expectations about how that and why the environment should function in particular ways. And so you've even got this generational divide. And actually some people who are from previous generations who now feel a bit isolated themselves, they've Well, actually, you know, I don't quite understand certain values that maybe younger people have, and I don't necessarily fully agree with them, but I am losing my voice in this environment. And so, the challenge is, we need to find a way for everybody to better understand themselves and each other, and be more accepting of this journey that we're all on. We're all on. And so, as I say, so often in life, I've come across people who sound like they completely understand what needs to happen, or why we are where we all or what the right perspective must be. But I always try to remind people that we have never and I said this earlier that we have never been in a moment like this. Society has never looked or felt this way before. And so therefore, everybody's best ideas is still part of a really interested in social experiment. And we just all need to find a way to be able to mock in together and try and figure it out as a society, because if we don't, the future may look or maybe very, very bleak. And that's what we need to try and avoid. Zoe Amar 43:37 Yeah, I think you're absolutely right on that Samuel and it's so interesting what you say about the generational shift, I went in to talk to my daughter school recently about inclusion. And they really were very much like, why wouldn't we accept people who are different whereas I think my generation you know, a lot of things you and I had to fight for have been about but why would we accept these different ways of thinking and being and I think it's going to be so exciting when that younger generation really starts to come into the workplace, because those older generations, they're gonna get a lot of challenge. And as you say, it needs to happen. So exciting times ahead on that. Samuel, thank you so much. We've loved talking to you. I think this book is something which every leader should read. And it's such an important contribution to many of the themes that we've talked about on this podcast around leadership and workplace culture, and ultimately, how we can help everyone belong. So thank you so much for writing it. And thank you for naming all of these elephants in the room, which you and I will see every day in which needs to be talked about which needs to be tackled, and which can ultimately help make things better for everyone. So thank you for coming on today. And thank you for sharing this wonderful book. Samuel Kasumu 44:53 Thank you for having me. And thank you for reading the book. Zoe Amar 44:55 Our pleasure. I will you be writing another one? Samuel Kasumu 44:58 Yes. Do I owe my current editor some work, which I haven't done yet. But yeah, there's a second book. Zoe Amar 45:07 Exciting, well do keep us posted! Our thanks to Samuel for his time and contribution to the podcast, The Power of the Outsider a Journey of Discovery is published by Hodder books. And he's available now. And we'll share a link to where you can buy the book in the show notes. And just briefly speaking of books, I've also included a link to a blog in the show notes about some other fantastic books that you would highly recommend to our listeners. Paul Thomas 45:34 Our next episode is going to be out now in a couple of weeks and we'll be with Eloise Skinner, who is an author, founder and psychotherapist and we'll be talking to her about purpose at work. Zoe Amar 45:44 You can support the podcast by leaving us a five star review wherever you listen to us, whether that's Apple podcasts, Spotify, or Google or simply hit share on the episode and send it to someone who it's made you think of. Thank you for listening. Paul Thomas 45:59 Thank you very much for listening and bye for now. Transcribed by https://otter.ai