Dr. Lucy Ryan: It is the stories of midlife professional women
who are exiting the workplace just at the point where they're
about to step up into positions of influence.
Paul Thomas: Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the
Top, our podcast about leading differently. I'm Paul Thomas.
Zoe Amar: And I'm Zoe Amar our podcast exists to help leaders
and their teams understand what they need to do differently
today to prepare for the world of tomorrow. We started Starts
at the Top as a podcast about digital disruption. But we soon
realised that leaders were telling us about something more
important and urgent about how traditional ways of leading have
changed forever.
Paul Thomas: We make it our mission to speak to leaders who
are carving out new ways of leading, and we cover topics
from emerging tech to inclusion from a remote work to mental
health and climate change. Basically all the subjects that
today's leaders need to be across in 2024.
Zoe Amar: Our podcast isn't about shiny corporate case
studies. It's about lessons learned and progress made the
hard way and crucially how that can inspire others.
Paul Thomas: And on today's episode, we're sharing our
conversation with Dr. Lucy Ryan, who we spoke with last December
about her book Revolting Women Why midlife women walk out and
what to do about it.
Zoe Amar: This is the fourth episode of this season. And we'd
like to thank the four amazing women we've spoken to as part of
this women in leadership miniseries, not only Lucy but
Aggie Mutuma, Lorraine Candy and Cathy Newman.
We learned so much from the conversations that we have on
this podcast. And these episodes in particular have been
revelatory for me. I'm not sure I would have normally picked up
books on the menopause and midlife women in the workplace
on my regular trips to Waterstones but having read
them, and then had the privilege of exploring them with you, Zoe,
and with our authors, with the authors themselves. I say we
could do this again next season, I've learned a lot.
Oh, amen to that. Yes, we'd love to profile more authors. And
we've got more coming up in our future interviews. Finding time
for reading is so important to me too. And this week, I've been
fascinated by a couple of blog posts from the Honest Broker
about how we can all make more time for ourselves away from our
screens. This is an essay by the blog's author, Ted Gioia, who
I'm saying that right about breaking free from what he calls
dopamine culture. And we'll put a link to that in the show
notes. I found this really thought provoking Paul cause it
got me thinking about the amount of time I spend on my phone, and
also some of my own behaviours when I'm scrolling. You know,
the other day I was scrolling through Instagram, I was
thinking, I don't think I'm really enjoying this. And I was
just not really feeling terribly relaxed either. And there's
nothing worse than that kind of passive scrolling is there when
you're just idly thumbing through your phone. And so
you're like eating junk food, which may come as a surprise to
people, given that I am quite a big advocate for for social
media. But I do also think that we need to be very mindful of
our behaviours, when we're consuming content, it's fine. If
you're not enjoying something in that moment, then that tells you
something about the relationship with the channel, but also what
you may need to do differently as well. What did you think of
that blog?
Paul Thomas: Yeah, no, I think I think starting off just to echo
your thoughts. I mean, somebody that in the past has been a very
big advocate of social media, and I find myself moving away
from it more and more. And I think one of the stock phrases
we use in this house, seemingly more and more is that the world
is filled with this sort of low level, anxiety, sort of fueled
by different areas of our lives. And one of those areas is social
media. And I found particularly over the last couple of years, a
real sense and of low level anxiety every time I go in there
and sort of look at what everybody else is doing.
Particularly around my business now around work, I'm always
busy, we've always got stuff to do. And we're always saying
we're doing pretty well. And then you go on to social media,
and you just see this whole story of other people seemingly
doing these wonderful things. But it's only when you have the
face to face conversations with them and they say do you know
what, it's not that great actually, you know I'm putting
on a brave face. And I think some of that is what we see
being fed through the screens to us through through social media.
But it is that that endless, I think he talks about this in the
essay quite a lot, the the sort of the endless scroll, and I was
quite taken with what he says, you know, we label this this
scrolling, Doom scrolling, it's, you know, it's there in the
title. It's not a great thing for us to be doing, we spend too
much time doing it. And we sort of find ourselves doing it at
the weirdest times. I'd like to the examples in the essay of
people writing in and saying, I've just been to the cinema and
sat through three hours of Dune II. And people in front of me
were using their phones and scrolling through. I know, it's
hard to sometimes get through even watching an hour's long
hour long programme on the on the sofa without picking up your
phone and being distracted by a buzz or a feed. So yeah, it
seeps into everything, isn't it?
Zoe Amar: Yeah, very much so very much. So I think that's
part of the challenge, isn't it? And like you, I have absolutely
champion social media over the years. And it is still a
channel, which I think is really important for organisations,
especially charities, where they don't have huge budget to spend
on other forms of marketing. I guess this here is about that a
personal use of social, isn't it? And where we might find
ourselves constantly reaching for phones, or perhaps looking
at our phones, or we should be talking to our children. I mean,
goodness me I've certainly been there. But yeah, it's really got
me thinking about how dependent I've become on my phone and how
I need to, perhaps have a little bit of a break from it
sometimes.
And
Paul Thomas: And am I right in saying did you tell me once upon
a time that you turned off notifications? Or do you still
have them on the phone?
Zoe Amar: It's a good question. So the only notifications I have
on my phone now are I have slack notifications because obviously
we have a digital Slack channel, which you're part of. And then
also I have calendar notifications. And I have my
whatsapp notifications, because I'm in a number of groups, you
know, to deal with like kids schools and things like that.
But everything else text, email, other alerts, I turned all of
those off, and also socials that I turned all of those off years
ago, because I just find it's too distracting. It's so many
notifications, even with just those simple things. What about
you?
Paul Thomas: Yeah, every time this comes up I think I need to
turn it off. I still get them for for quite a lot of things.
But I tend to try and set up specific alerts for specific
topics that I really am interested in. So that that
hopefully cuts through WhatsApp, for example, it's quite easy to
turn off the notifications there for groups. So group text, which
can go you know, as well as it can go absolutely off can't
they. That, you know, I tried to stay away from. Yeah, so I think
notifications is one thing. The other thing that I would say
here is that even though phones are quite dominant in our lives,
I was quite pleased, I will put this into the show notes. But
there was a table that he put together in this called the rise
of dopamine culture, where he talks about various different
activities. And there's a range from slow traditional culture
all the way through to dopamine. So for example, the one that
stood out to me was music. I'm very much an album person and
that's on the slow traditional culture. Then it goes albums
tracks tiktoks as being the sort of the main one. And now it's
looking at this one, play a sport, watch a sport gamble on a
sport. So there are these different things. I think, in
most instances, I'm still very much on the left hand side of
that so although I'm geared towards my phone more often than
I probably should be it's quite nice to look at that table and
think you know what, in some areas I feel quite old school.
Although I can't remember the last time I've ever written a
handwritten letter that's that is a long time ago my
handwriting is just gone off the chart bad because I'm never
using it then.
Zoe Amar: Amazing, amazing. Well, I think these articles are
well worth reading and we'll give everyone a lot of food for
thought about being very dependent on phones but also on
the dopamine hit that we've all been dying to get from social
media. And also for anyone who is trying to spend less time on
their phone I've signed up to a free Guardian course it's just
based on a series of newsletters, which is all about
getting you to spend less time on your phone. So we'll link to
that in the show notes as well.
Paul Thomas: So now for our conversation with Dr. Lucy Ryan.
Zoe Amar: We are super excited to welcome Dr. Lucy Ryan to
Starts at the Top. Lucy is managing director of Mindspring
International which she has led for the last 20 years. And
during that time she has trained consulted with and coached over
10,000 leaders in Global Blue Chip companies across 29
countries. In 2021, Lucy published the best selling
lunchtime learning for leaders, synthesising her popular down to
earth training approach. She's also a passionate advocate for
women's professional development, helping
organisations attract, retain and promote their female leaders
and gender proof their succession plans. Noticing a
trend for female midlife clients leaving their corporate roles.
She led a unique five year doctoral research project
exploring this phenomenon, filling a long standing data
gap. Lucy's 2023 book, Revolting Women why midlife women walk out
and what to do about it was an instant Amazon Best Seller,
Financial Times Book of the Month and hailed by the Sunday
Times as clear, pithy and enraging. Lucy is an accredited
Master Practitioner coach, and nominated in 2022, as one of the
top 100 global coaches room. She's a much requested speaker
on the conference circuit, and a popular webinar and podcast
guests. With a master's in positive psychology, Lucy
lectures in positive leadership and organisational well being at
the University of East London, and she is an honorary research
fellow at the University of Liverpool. Dr. Lucy Ryan we're
so excited to have you here. Welcome to Starts at the Top.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Thank you. Thank you, Zoe.
Zoe Amar: And we're even more excited because just before we
started recording, I shared with you the story about how I came
across this book, I am in my mid 40s. I'm in that crunch point of
looking after children transitioning to secondary
school and running a business and thinking about care of an
elderly parent. And when I opened the Sunday Times that
morning, and read about Revolting Women I thought I need
to read this book, it will change my life. And I thought
about it again last week, when I was icing my daughter's 11th
birthday cake, was frantically trying to get ready for a board
meeting and the dilemmas you described in this book really,
really hit home with me. So thank you so much for joining us
today.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me, Zoe,
I've been looking forward to this.
Zoe Amar: It's our pleasure. We're very happy to have you
here. So for anyone who hasn't come across the book, can you
tell us a bit about what it's about? And also what prompted
you to write it?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: So what prompted me is, is I've done my PhD in
this area. So I've done a PhD looking at how midlife women
experience their professional life. And I thought that was the
end of it. After five years, you know, you always want to throw
your PhD in the bin and never talk about it again. But it
wouldn't let me go. And I wrote another book in the meantime,
Lunchtime Learning and thought that's it. I'm not, I'm not
doing this anymore. But it absolutely wouldn't let me go.
And so I ended up writing Revolting Women. And
essentially, it is the story or stories of midlife professional
women who are exiting the workplace, just at the point
where they're about to step up into positions of influence. And
it's an extraordinary phenomenon. And I still can't
believe that it's not written about everywhere, that there's
not complete outrage, because it's quite a global phenomenon.
It's not just UK. But the fact is, it's like a silent
revolution in that they are just exiting, and everyone's put
their head down, ignored it, and hope the problem will go away.
So this was my starter for 10 of writing the book to start the
conversation about what do we do about the exodus of these women.
Zoe Amar: That's amazing. And can you tell us about the kind
of scale of the problem because I remember being really struck
when I first read the book, a couple of months ago by these
really shocking stats and the size of the challenges. What can
you tell us about that?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Sure. Well, let me start off with just two big
facts to give you a sense of the scale of it from the US and UK
for every female director that's being promoted two are leaving.
And in the UK, for example, we have had a plateauing figure of
between 11 and 14%, of female employed, directors, executive
directors. Now, that's been a plateau that's been nearly a
decade and has been reported on relentlessly year in year out by
Cranfield and hasn't moved. And it's been hidden by the fact
that we have a lot of non executive directors, female non
executive directors at the top five companies. So everyone's
gone. Not a problem. We got a lot of middle aged women thanks
very much. But the fact is, is they're not employed. And the
actual employed female directors are exiting. Hence this this
plateauing statistic that is just not shifting. So the scale
is, it's big, it's worldwide. And we have no single
organisation at all, any sector, where the female directors are
greater than the male directors.
Zoe Amar: This is shocking, isn't it? So why aren't more
people talking about this? Because they shouldn't be,
shouldn't they?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Well that's why I wrote the book. Why aren't
people talking about it? If I was being cynical, which I'm
actually not often I don't really like cynicism, to be
honest Zoe, the reason we're not talking about is either, because
it is just more convenient to leave the status quo as it is.
So we've got a lot of men leading our organisations, if
they really have to embrace this issue, then something rather
major has to shift. So either the desire to keep the status
quo is just too big, or the problem has crept up on
everyone.
Zoe Amar: And do you think ageism and sexism are at play
here?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: I think gendered ageism is a huge problem. And
it's one of the things I start with in the book. Why are women
exiting? Well, one of the first reasons they're exiting is
because of gendered ageism. And that takes many forms, Zoe, it
can be blunt, it can be language, you know, that the
women I interviewed were called all sorts of things from old
bint to fuddy duddy, to old aunt to all sorts of things. So it
can be actual blunt language, or it can be much more subtle, in a
lot of women found that they were just being sidelined. And
that projects they were leading, they were suddenly told that
maybe they weren't capable of leading and they were giving it
to a man. So they were sidelined. They were moved down,
they were moved across, or they were told they're just not
capable of stepping up. But a man is with less qualifications.
So you've got all sorts of things at play. Plus, we can't
ignore the fact that an ageing man is considered far sexier
than an ageing woman. So I can I can see Paul raising his
eyebrows. So you know, I, I call it the George Clooney effect.
You know that there are plenty of positive words to discuss
older men, you know, so older men might be called fine wines
or silver foxes, or they're considered quite cool as they
become older and grey haired. Older grey haired women there is
not a single positive word in the English language to describe
them. We have plenty of negative ones, hags, crones, spinsters,
witches, harridans, frumps, but not a single positive word to
describe them.
Zoe Amar: That's so interesting, because obviously I was very
aware of this gendered ageism issue, but I haven't really
thought about that point about language before. You're right!
The female George Clooney is out there right? I mean, we just
have to hero them and have words to describe them.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Yeah. And and we go, wow, you look good getting
older. What we say to women is, oh, wow, you don't look your
age. So we ask them to be younger. There are all sorts of
aspects around gendered ageism that women face. And certainly
the women I interviewed expended a lot of energy, money and time
trying to look younger.
Paul Thomas: Is it worse in certain industries? So do you
think this is across the board? Is it all organisations? Or is
it yeah, is it worse in... I mean, there are male dominated
industries, most industries will have male domination at the top
of them, I guess, silly comment to make. But is it worse over
somewhere?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: It's more obvious Paul, in industries like the
media, in that branding, looking young, looking fast, looking
speedy, is more important in some industries, like media. But
I interviewed women across all sectors deliberately, and found
no difference. The only sector I couldn't interview women was
politics. And I think that's another sector Paul, where it's
hard to look older as well.
Paul Thomas: Yeah. And I was gonna say the, you know, I
listen to a lot of, watch a lot of movies and watch and listen
to a lot of film podcasts. And that's an industry that's
constantly sort of criticised for what role is dry up for
older women. And isn't that a perfect role for a woman of her
age and all these sorts of things. But you're right in even
in that industry, it's never it's never massively positive.
And the roles for older women are usually sort of powerhouses,
are sort of women on the rise, all of that sort of stuff
comebacks and that sort of language is used.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Yeah, yes, is exactly right. And we can name
most of the older women on screen. You know, we know our
Helen Mirren's, our Judi Dench's, our Maggie Smith's, we
couldn't start to name all the men on screen, because there's
so many. So they are the exception.
Zoe Amar: That's very true. And it was interesting I was
listening to, on another podcast over the weekend which Paul send
me and also there's a thing of older women of colour isn't
there? So in And Just Like That... series, which sounds
like you've watched as well. I remember being absolutely
riveted by the cast. And one of the reasons why I suddenly
realise you don't often see older women of colour on screen.
So in that regard, it was really interesting to witness that.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Massive. And for every statistic that, you know,
I have in the book, as I say in the book, it's worse for women
of colour. So everything is heightened for other women.
Zoe Amar: Yeah, I can, I can well believe that. I just saw
Paul staring out the window probably contemplating a future
as the George Clooney of Digital Strategy.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: George Clooney of podcasting, Paul!
Paul Thomas: No, I'm looking in the mirror and seeing, you know,
ageing man that needs a haircut and feels a little bit out of
his depth. No, I think it's, I think it's, it's massively
interesting. And I think, you know, I've, I don't want to sort
of, you know, name names. I've been on this podcast for long
enough saying and talking about the organisations that I've
used, I used to work for. So I don't, not gonna get sort of
name names. But yeah, I worked under a female CEO. And just
thinking back about some of the language that was used to
describe her in that post, lots of positive language, lots of
lots of reaffirming language, but the longer the short of it
is that we've talked about it before, haven't we Zoe? The
antibodies kicked in and as soon as the the changes that she was
making to the organisation didn't stick or didn't work,
then it became sort of a well, let's redress the balance. Let's
go back to what we know. That was a good experiment that got
us to a certain point, but it's not it's not what we need. So
yeah, witnessed it firsthand within organisations that I've
worked for. Yeah, that's kind of my reflection, as I was gazing
out of the window and thinking, Oh, my God, this is not a good
position to be in. And as I work with now, smaller organisations,
hopefully starting to see a bit of a term within smaller
organisations that have some more ability to manoeuvre around
these big questions.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Yeah, I mean, I don't mind where the change
comes from, whether it comes from our large organisations or
small organisations, but for sure, a lot of the midlife women
are leaving larger organisations and setting up smaller
organisations, they're not going, they're not retiring.
They are the entrepreneurs of the future. I think I'm right in
saying that 67% of all new business account setup last
year, were by women over 55.
Paul Thomas: We've also interviewed on this podcast,
remember Joy from TechPixies and TechPixies was an organisation
that was specifically set up to help women who wanted to exit
the workplace and take up careers in other areas. So this
was specifically around managing digital transformation, social
media strategies, that sort of thing. And on her books, she had
lawyers, she had doctors, she had women from all sorts of
industries who were signing up saying, I don't want to do that
anymore. I want something more flexible, something that I can
do in my own time. And she had a massive influx of women into
that programme.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Yeah so on the one hand, there's something very
positive about this, which is women are leaving, middle aged
women are leaving organisations. They're taking their wisdom,
their creativity into entrepreneurial companies. But
what about the loss to all the companies who are losing them?
So on the one hand, we celebrate what the women are doing, and on
the other hand, I'm going, why didn't you keep them?
Zoe Amar: Absolutely. And tell us more about the impact of that
loss? Because that's something that really struck me when
reading your book?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Well, I think you're absolutely right, in that
there is a huge impact. And I think that once the women leave,
you lose a huge amount Zoe. I mean, let's talk about the
organisations first, you lose a whole wealth of talent, often
homegrown talent within the organisation, you lose
creativity. Now, it's quite interesting to me that we think
that young people have the hold on ambition, creativity, and
energy. Now, I would say look at any middle age woman, and I will
show you an extremely resilient, wise, creative, motivated woman.
So they lose an enormous amount. You know, I know from all the
research that middle aged women are, after kind of a zigzag
carrer are definitely on the up in terms of motivation, that
kind of 55 or so if they want more of it, not less. So not
only are we losing all of that, but the other thing we're losing
that really matters is organisations are losing their
older role models. So young people have no one to look up
to. And they're going okay, so I'm not going to get old with
this company. Because there aren't really any good positive
role models. And there are there isn't any training for me or any
pathways for me, or creative pathways for me. So it's an
enormous challenge for organisations. For women it's
either a positive move, because they go right, I'm off. And
they've got all this exciting ideas for companies of their
own, but very commonly that comes after transition. And it's
what I call the midlife collision, in that one of the
biggest reasons that women, midlife women leave
organisations, is this collision of circumstances that is utterly
painful. So not only is it often the looking after of our older
children, which isn't necessarily painful, although
there is a growing number of older children with mental
health challenges. But there's also the looking after our
parents, with sadly high levels of dementia care going on. Plus,
you'll often find middle aged women are looking after their a
family member, a sibling, a husband. And then they've also
got the menopause. And often either financial issues,
divorce. So there is this sweet spot this collision that goes on
at midlife. And what happens is they often want a temporary
break. I heard so many heartbreaking stories of women
going I just wanted five weeks to be with my dad when he died.
I just wanted some temporary time and I couldn't get it. So I
left. And I think what organisations don't get is that
commonly all these midlife challenges are temporary. And so
the challenge on women, it might be positive afterwards. But
there is a huge amount of either anger or pain or hurt as they
cope with this midlife collision. And then they get
back on their feet and then they're ready to start again.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely, I mean it's just awful isn't it. That
the cost to organisations of losing these incredibly talented
members of the workforce in terms of their skills, as you
say, their energy, the value of them being role models,
especially with recruitment being such an expensive thing to
do is huge. And then there's also the cost to individuals
isn't there? So if someone has a really difficult exit, then that
can really affect their confidence. And obviously as you
say, hopefully, on the other side of that, that person then
discovers their entrepreneurial net, so go on to do wonderful,
wonderful things.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Yeah that's a good, that's a good thing.
Zoe Amar: But it doesn't need to be this painful round, does it?
And the onus is very much on organisations to fix and change
this.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: I think so. I mean, we can put some of the
onus on women to articulate what's going on. But I think
that we've spent many years you know, decades blaming women,
particularly saying you need more confidence, you need to
step up, you need to do this, but actually, it's the
organisation that needs to recognise this challenge. But
that starts from a strategic intent to want to retain them.
Paul Thomas: And you're talking about fairly short, in some
instances where women you've spoken to have asked for five
weeks. Are there any organisations that are seriously
looking at those midlife sabbaticals? Because, you know,
I've worked with organisations that take it very seriously for
their young up and coming talent. Oh, you would like to
sabbatical? Yeah, here you go. Here's some time off. But surely
that should be in place for women going through this as
well.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: There are few organisations that are taking it
seriously. I mean, a handful, Paul, but there are more that
are starting to look at it. And you're, you're absolutely right,
that that's what's needed. Which is there's something around a
midlife sabbatical. Now, it's not as radical as it sounds
either. We've got 100 year lives, we've got 50 year
careers. We're used to doing it for maternity leave, we're used
to doing it for young people. But because we've come to think
of kind of 55 as the glide to retirement, we've stopped
thinking creatively around maybe a six month sabbatical to sort
all of these different things out in your life, and then get
you ready for this next whatever the next career pathway is.
Zoe Amar: This is about reframing, isn't it? Because
what I loved about your book, was this sense of midlife being
this time when actually it can be the start of a really
exciting chapter, so one of the people who always pops into my
head with this stuff is Trinny Woodall who I think, made an
investment, for her business for a new business of age 57, or
something like that. And she's living her best life and this
amazing new chapter on this adventure. And more
organisations need to see women at this time in their life as as
people who can go on to this source of, of kind of growth in
this new journey, which can actually deliver a lot of for
society, not for them and make a massive difference.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Absolutely. And that's the revolt. If we talk
about, you know why women leave, we've got gendered ageism, we've
got the midlife collision. But we've got this much more hopeful
side, which is a revolt against the kind of full time
foolishness of the system. And that a desire to live a career
and live a life on their terms. So they're wanting to redefine
what career success looks like. And it's certainly not 24/7 but
it is hopeful and interesting, and motivating.
Zoe Amar: It really is and what time is this revolt? And when do
I need to be there? And do I need to bring snacks?
Paul Thomas: Do you need to bring snacks.
Yes,
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Yeah, it's at 5pm Zoe, I you need to definitely
bring gin and snacks.
Zoe Amar: Gin and Snacks, I like that. Well Paul knows I love to
bake so I'll bring some cake. And you'll join us as well won't
you Paul?
Paul Thomas: I'll bring the gin yeah. And a bit of Whiskey. So,
as I said, Zoe said we were sort of sharing various episodes of
podcasts you'd been on over the last couple of months. And one
of the things that you talked about in that I think, connects
to what we've just been discussing and the concept of
midlife check ins. And organisations doing that and I
guess quite sadly to sort of really bring that to life. What
they're going to need to do for most organisations is make that
across the board for men and women going through midlife. And
I was really interested in that concept because you know,
working on my own I could do with a bit of that. So I
probably need to sort out my own midlife check in. But how do you
see that working within organisations?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Yeah, it's a really great question. And it's
the part, Paul that organisations are kind of
grabbing on to, which is, okay, midlife check ins, we can do
that. What I mean by it is, when managers have a conversation
with members of their team, it's usually about task. How are you
doing? What's going on? What have you done well, this year,
what's not going well? What are your objectives for next year?
What we rarely do, although we started in the pandemic, is we
rarely go and how are you? And what actually is going on in
your life in a holistic way? Tell me about your kids. Tell me
about your parents. Tell me what else you're juggling? What
actually is going on? And how can we support you? And if more
conversations I mean, women have conversation like that with me
as their coach, but they're not having it with their
organisation? Because they say, Well, if I tell them what's
going on, I'll suddenly be sidelined. So it's about having
a healthy holistic check in. But it must have some form of
solution attached to it. It's not It can't just be, look, I'm
really curious what is going on? And I'm so sorry. Anyway, could
you get back to work, please, that there needs to be on the
other side's something that goes with it. But if we had those
conversations, we'd have far less surprises. And I know
organisations been consistently surprised by top executives
suddenly resigning, and they go, Well, we had you in the
succession plan, and you're going, yeah, but if you'd found
out what was going on, that wouldn't be a surprise.
Paul Thomas: And do you think that the leaving is exacerbated
or has been exacerbated by the pandemic? Is there, we've talked
on this podcast quite often about a general sense of
reevaluation, tiredness, people realising you know that they
were barking up the wrong tree and had been for a long, long
time. Do you think that's changed things at all?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: I think it's changed things in a couple of
ways. One is exactly as you say, the reevaluation, there's no
doubt about it, there was a sense of a kind of revolt of the
life I was leading, how I want it to be. So that's true. On the
more difficult side, once women came back into the household,
everyone went, Oh, it's really nice to have you home. And it's
been far harder for them to leave again, and go back out to
the workplace. And unfortunately, what I'm seeing
in a lot of workplaces is they want everyone back in full time.
So I thought we were going to be able to really manage a hybrid
workforce that would suit women more. But I'm seeing a cry for
more full time work back in the office. I might be wrong.
Zoe Amar: I think you're right about that. I'm thinking of one
friend in particular. And I want to be careful what I say about
her because I think she does listen sometimes. A phenomenally
talented senior leader who works in the corporate world, who like
me is at a stage where she's got kids who are either about
transition to secondary or in secondary, where I didn't
realise you need to be at home a bit more, because they're coming
back from school earlier, Paul's nodding because he's got kids
with a similar age to mine. You just need to be around that bit
more, don't you? And actually, that's had a bit of a knock on
impact on jobs that this person who could go for, who would be
an asset to any organisation, and also balancing that with her
husband's career who travels a lot. And I think you're right, I
think, there's suddenly, this I think of being pulled back into
a whirlpool of being at home, and having to deal with a lot of
the commitments then balance that alongside of having a full
on job is, is a real challenge, isn't it?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: It's a real challenge, and quite again, an
unspoken one, in that when our children, I certainly found when
my children were younger, there was a lot of quid pro quo, you
know, will you take mine, I'll take yours, you do that? And I
found that as my children went to secondary school, they didn't
really want to see me or speak to me, but they wanted to know I
was there.
Zoe Amar: That sums up parenting.
it's a beauty.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: And, you know, those challenges become
different at any age.
Yeah,
Paul Thomas: Yeah and I think things like, you know, checking
homeworks being done and all those sorts of things are the
challenges that when they walk through the door you have to
face. As you've recognised earlier on, I think, a huge
uplift in emotional issues as well. So being there for that,
especially going through either the transition into senior
school or through senior school can be quite quite hard, exam
times all those sorts of things. And it just keeps, I keep coming
back to the idea that it would be so simple to allow that
sabbatical that sort of midlife pause, where you can just say,
look, just a few weeks to decide, readjust to get myself
together, and then come back with that renewed vigour and
energy to really, really go into the next phase of my career with
a spring in my step and purpose.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Agree and I think that when organisations get used
to this idea, and it's a when to me, not an if. Of both the 100
year life, the 50 year career, the loss of their older women,
then they will start going, we really need to think about this
differently. In terms of flexibility, sabbaticals,
check-ins, giving women a way back in, I think, is really
important too.
Zoe Amar: And that's so interesting, isn't it? Because I
think one of the things you talk about in the book is how
actually that way back in post baby has been thought about by
organisations and there's a lot of transferable learning and
obviously, the life situation is different. But if it can be done
for younger women coming back after having children, there's
surely a way to do it for these incredibly talented midlife
women.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Absolutely. You know, we were not done in
organisations, we've we've done it very well for maternity in
the UK, we haven't done it very well for paternity. But
Scandinavia has been perfect role models for us. There, I
will come back to the fact there needs to be a strategic intent
to tackle this issue. Once you've got that strategic
intent, I believe the solutions are staring us in the face. And
not too hard.
Zoe Amar: I think that's a great point. So with that strategic
intent and thinking about some of those great progressive
examples from Scandinavia, do you think that's what it takes?
You need some kind of signalling some sort of policy commitment
at that governmental level for things to shift? Do we need that
rather than organisations fixing this on on their own?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: I think if you had at the government level,
that would be great. But governments change and change
their policies and reduce funding, I think it will take it
from a cabal of CEOs, which is what's starting to happen in
France. So yeah, it is really interesting. And so I think it
will come from a group of CEOs going right, we actually need to
address this. And we need to think this, think about this
differently. And then gradually, I think we'll start to see those
wheels turn.
Zoe Amar: So if I'm a leader listening to this podcast
thinking, right, I need to read this book, and I need to do
things differently. I didn't realise about the scale of the
problem, what should I be doing?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: So apart from obviously reading the book, Zoe,
and taking it, taking it back to the organisation, what I would
do is take the issues, and I've put kind of 10 provocations for
change at the back of the book. So I've laid out some steps that
an organisation can take. So I think any leader needs to take
it to HR needs to take it to their diversity and inclusion
people and needs to start looking at their own statistics
of their own team, their own organisation, and thinking about
what are we like, where are we losing women? What are our
personal statistics, and then bringing it up at the senior
leadership team meetings, and seeing what the appetite is for
change? And slowly but surely building it?
Zoe Amar: Yeah. And I thoroughly recommend those 10 provocations.
I think that there's so much good practical advice in there
for leaders who know that this is important, but need those
those tips and those steps that they can follow in order to take
this forward. So yeah, I absolutely love this. I think
that's a really great, it's like a toolkit almost.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Yeah, hopefully. I mean, it's got to start
somewhere and I'd start with looking at your own statistics
of an organisation.
Zoe Amar: And before we started recording today, you talked
about how you had this amazing supportive response from lots of
women and I can see all over social which is great. And we
talked about the response from organisations being a bit
different, can you tell us about that?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Sure. So as you rightly say, women have, middle
aged women have been beating a path to my door, saying, Thank
you for recognising us. Thank you for speaking about this.
This is the first time I've seen in my life, my experiences in
print. Organisations have been slower to do that. Slower to the
point of silence. And that's changing, you know, it's only
been three months. So that is slowly starting to change. I
think naively, I thought, Zoe that you know, my phone would
ring off the hook with CEOs going right help us help us do
this. And that's not the case. So systemic changes will happen
slowly. And I am slightly less naive now three months on. And I
can see that I've just got to tackle this slightly
differently, and start at the top with CEOs. And help them see
that both age is an issue as well as their gender proofing
their succession plans.
Zoe Amar: I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I think it
will take time for the wheel to turn inevitably, just in any
area of change around EDI doesn't it? And I feel that this
whole issue around age is one of those things that has been
perhaps quite overlooked in some EDI programmes, as well. So it's
great that you're starting this conversation. And if I just take
one horrible news story, you know, to create that burning
platform, you know, something awful happens in some
organisation, and then suddenly CEO start to mobilise on mass,
we can't have this happen here. So maybe that's what it will
take, unfortunately. I mean, I would love it if they were all
beating their path to your door now, I mean, who knows? It might
happen tomorrow. But I think this change is coming. Just the
fact that you've got this kind of momentum and energy around
the launch of the book says to me that this is your thing.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Yeah, I think so too. So you know, thank you for
helping me on this journey.
No
Zoe Amar: No problem. And Paul, you had a question about midlife
transition, didn't you?
Well,
Paul Thomas: and
I was just thinking of one of the podcasts I shared with Zoe,
you talked about, they asked you what's next? And you said a long
rest, which is fine. A good answer to that question.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: I was obviously feeling very tired that day.
Paul Thomas: But the second thing you said, and I think this
is I think this we should have we should have maybe talked
about this earlier on. But I think it connects with,
obviously, I'm a man, I'm gonna bring a sort of a male
perspective to this, this podcast quite often and a
football perspective quite often. You said that you you'd
be interested in in looking and researching this from a male
perspective. And I, the more I started thinking about that
question before Zoe asked me to ask it. Again, I wondered
whether that's a trigger point for the conversation about
women, is if you were to do that piece of research about men,
whether that would then trigger the conversation about women,
and I hate to sort of put it in that that sort of perspective.
But I think in taking the conversation to men who in
midlife, I mean, it's celebrated, right? You know, we
sort of go, we're having a bit of a midlife crisis, you just
bought a sports car, you just left your wife for another
woman, all this sort of stuff that happens and we celebrate it
and go, isn't that funny? But actually the reverse when you
flip it over to the female side, it's completely different. I
just wonder whether a trigger point for men, as Zoe said, men
are going to need to step up and recognise this is that they
recognise it in themselves, and then say, and yes, what about
the women and I, I just wonder whether that would, is going to
be a trigger point for this to come to life for you.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: I think it's so interesting, Paul, and I suppose
the easy answer is I don't know. I think for so long you know,
certainly since the 1950s, where the term midlife crisis came
from. We have got used to joking about men's midlife. I actually
think men do know that often they're struggling in midlife
but I think a) they don't say it and b) they frame it in terms of
this haha crisis buy a Ferrari type language. Whereas I think
women are less able to fret or don't want to, to joke it off.
So I think certainly CEO's are going to be more interested to
act when the conversation is broader. So when the
conversation is about age and age diversity, rather than just
about women.
Paul Thomas: Yeah, I think that's that, that again, you
know Zoe's made a great point there. I'm working with an
organisation at the moment who are sort of looking at their EDI
strategy and age is not in there. And straightaway,
tomorrow morning, the recommendation is going to be
right, we need to put that in there. And it needs to be front
and centre because I think it's so important. And Zoe, and I
benefit from this, of course, because what we do in both of
our organisations is surround ourselves with brilliant people
who can work with us to do brilliant things for our
clients. And in my case, those 3 brilliant people I work with are
all women who have all left industry, and are all looking
for something different. So from my perspective, it's, it's a
sort of a winning, you leave that world you come into mine,
and that's absolutely fine. But you're right, it's what it
leaves behind. And that's a real real concern.
Absolutely.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Absolutely. So you know, on the one hand, isn't
it brilliant. And that's what I'm saying is, we can look at
all these amazing, entrepreneurial, middle aged
women, creative, wise, resilient, and on the other
hand, I'm going, but what a loss to an organisation. And with
just a little bit of thought and intent, they could retain them.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely.
Paul Thomas: Very thought provoking stuff.
Zoe Amar: Very thought provoking. And I think there's
something here about really proudly celebrating the value
that women offer in the workplace, and also the legacy
the amazing legacies that they leave behind them as well. And
that's what I really loved about your book, the way it brings
that really front and centre, and really celebrates that. And
that's what we need more of isn't it.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: We definitely need more of that I went to a
beautiful award ceremony of advantages of age, with all
these extraordinary women aged 70 and 80. In flamboyant gear,
and I thought, yeah, that's what we need more.
Zoe Amar: Absolutely. And it was so interesting to have seen your
post about that, because I'm half Chinese. And in Chinese
culture, age is revered, it's celebrated, is seen as a source
of wisdom. And you know if an older person, like, for example,
my mother tells anyone what to do, you need to do it because it
is seen as coming from a source of great value and strength. So
it's very different to perhaps the Western society, in many
ways.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: It's a Western issue isn't it. Yeah, you're
right.
Zoe Amar: What an amazing book. Thank you so much.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Oh, my total pleasure. Thank you for having
me, Zoe. And Paul.
Zoe Amar: Oh it's our pleasure. We will put details of the book
in the show notes. Where else can people find you?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: They can mainly find me on LinkedIn under Dr.
Lucy Ryan, they can find me on Instagram. And they can also
check out my websites, which is mindspring or lucyryan.co.uk.
Zoe Amar: Wonderful. We'll put those in the show notes. And
what are you up to next?
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Well, clearly, it's not a long rest. So
obviously, I had one weekend, and that was it. So there's some
business as usual training and coaching. But I've also joined
forces with Noon, which is a brilliant organisation run by
Eleanor Mills. And I'm doing some consulting work with them.
And so we do a collaborative, brilliant push on queen agers
and their value to organisations. So I'm excited
about that too. So there's lots going on now.
Zoe Amar: Amazing. Well, we can't wait to see what you do
next. And keep in touch and we would love to have you back
again in the future when no doubt you will have achieved
even more amazing things.
Dr. Lucy Ryan: Thank you so much Zoe, thank you Paul.
Zoe Amar: Thank you to Lucy for joining us on the podcast a lot
to think about in that conversation and a wonderful way
to close out these first four episodes.
As
Paul Thomas: As always, we really do appreciate you've
listened all the way through to the end of this episode. So
thank you. You can support the podcast by leaving us a five
star review. Wherever you listen to us. It really does help us to
reach more people. So if you've enjoyed what you've heard,
please do pass it on. Share us with a friend.
Zoe Amar: Thank you so much for listening today. And we'll see
you in a couple of weeks with a brand new episode of Starts at
the Top.
See
Paul Thomas: See you then and bye for now.