Dr. Lucy Ryan 0:03 It is the stories of midlife professional women who are exiting the workplace just at the point where they're about to step up into positions of influence. Paul Thomas 0:16 Welcome to a brand new episode of Starts at the Top, our podcast about leading differently. I'm Paul Thomas. Zoe Amar 0:23 And I'm Zoe Amar our podcast exists to help leaders and their teams understand what they need to do differently today to prepare for the world of tomorrow. We started Starts at the Top as a podcast about digital disruption. But we soon realised that leaders were telling us about something more important and urgent about how traditional ways of leading have changed forever. Paul Thomas 0:46 We make it our mission to speak to leaders who are carving out new ways of leading, and we cover topics from emerging tech to inclusion from a remote work to mental health and climate change. Basically all the subjects that today's leaders need to be across in 2024. Zoe Amar 1:00 Our podcast isn't about shiny corporate case studies. It's about lessons learned and progress made the hard way and crucially how that can inspire others. Paul Thomas 1:10 And on today's episode, we're sharing our conversation with Dr. Lucy Ryan, who we spoke with last December about her book Revolting Women Why midlife women walk out and what to do about it. Zoe Amar 1:21 This is the fourth episode of this season. And we'd like to thank the four amazing women we've spoken to as part of this women in leadership miniseries, not only Lucy but Aggie Mutuma, Lorraine Candy and Cathy Newman. We learned so much from the conversations that we have on this podcast. And these episodes in particular have been revelatory for me. I'm not sure I would have normally picked up books on the menopause and midlife women in the workplace on my regular trips to Waterstones but having read them, and then had the privilege of exploring them with you, Zoe, and with our authors, with the authors themselves. I say we could do this again next season, I've learned a lot. Oh, amen to that. Yes, we'd love to profile more authors. And we've got more coming up in our future interviews. Finding time for reading is so important to me too. And this week, I've been fascinated by a couple of blog posts from the Honest Broker about how we can all make more time for ourselves away from our screens. This is an essay by the blog's author, Ted Gioia, who I'm saying that right about breaking free from what he calls dopamine culture. And we'll put a link to that in the show notes. I found this really thought provoking Paul cause it got me thinking about the amount of time I spend on my phone, and also some of my own behaviours when I'm scrolling. You know, the other day I was scrolling through Instagram, I was thinking, I don't think I'm really enjoying this. And I was just not really feeling terribly relaxed either. And there's nothing worse than that kind of passive scrolling is there when you're just idly thumbing through your phone. And so you're like eating junk food, which may come as a surprise to people, given that I am quite a big advocate for for social media. But I do also think that we need to be very mindful of our behaviours, when we're consuming content, it's fine. If you're not enjoying something in that moment, then that tells you something about the relationship with the channel, but also what you may need to do differently as well. What did you think of that blog? Paul Thomas 3:25 Yeah, no, I think I think starting off just to echo your thoughts. I mean, somebody that in the past has been a very big advocate of social media, and I find myself moving away from it more and more. And I think one of the stock phrases we use in this house, seemingly more and more is that the world is filled with this sort of low level, anxiety, sort of fueled by different areas of our lives. And one of those areas is social media. And I found particularly over the last couple of years, a real sense and of low level anxiety every time I go in there and sort of look at what everybody else is doing. Particularly around my business now around work, I'm always busy, we've always got stuff to do. And we're always saying we're doing pretty well. And then you go on to social media, and you just see this whole story of other people seemingly doing these wonderful things. But it's only when you have the face to face conversations with them and they say do you know what, it's not that great actually, you know I'm putting on a brave face. And I think some of that is what we see being fed through the screens to us through through social media. But it is that that endless, I think he talks about this in the essay quite a lot, the the sort of the endless scroll, and I was quite taken with what he says, you know, we label this this scrolling, Doom scrolling, it's, you know, it's there in the title. It's not a great thing for us to be doing, we spend too much time doing it. And we sort of find ourselves doing it at the weirdest times. I'd like to the examples in the essay of people writing in and saying, I've just been to the cinema and sat through three hours of Dune II. And people in front of me were using their phones and scrolling through. I know, it's hard to sometimes get through even watching an hour's long hour long programme on the on the sofa without picking up your phone and being distracted by a buzz or a feed. So yeah, it seeps into everything, isn't it? Zoe Amar 5:20 Yeah, very much so very much. So I think that's part of the challenge, isn't it? And like you, I have absolutely champion social media over the years. And it is still a channel, which I think is really important for organisations, especially charities, where they don't have huge budget to spend on other forms of marketing. I guess this here is about that a personal use of social, isn't it? And where we might find ourselves constantly reaching for phones, or perhaps looking at our phones, or we should be talking to our children. I mean, goodness me I've certainly been there. But yeah, it's really got me thinking about how dependent I've become on my phone and how I need to, perhaps have a little bit of a break from it sometimes. And Paul Thomas 6:12 And am I right in saying did you tell me once upon a time that you turned off notifications? Or do you still have them on the phone? Zoe Amar 6:18 It's a good question. So the only notifications I have on my phone now are I have slack notifications because obviously we have a digital Slack channel, which you're part of. And then also I have calendar notifications. And I have my whatsapp notifications, because I'm in a number of groups, you know, to deal with like kids schools and things like that. But everything else text, email, other alerts, I turned all of those off, and also socials that I turned all of those off years ago, because I just find it's too distracting. It's so many notifications, even with just those simple things. What about you? Paul Thomas 7:02 Yeah, every time this comes up I think I need to turn it off. I still get them for for quite a lot of things. But I tend to try and set up specific alerts for specific topics that I really am interested in. So that that hopefully cuts through WhatsApp, for example, it's quite easy to turn off the notifications there for groups. So group text, which can go you know, as well as it can go absolutely off can't they. That, you know, I tried to stay away from. Yeah, so I think notifications is one thing. The other thing that I would say here is that even though phones are quite dominant in our lives, I was quite pleased, I will put this into the show notes. But there was a table that he put together in this called the rise of dopamine culture, where he talks about various different activities. And there's a range from slow traditional culture all the way through to dopamine. So for example, the one that stood out to me was music. I'm very much an album person and that's on the slow traditional culture. Then it goes albums tracks tiktoks as being the sort of the main one. And now it's looking at this one, play a sport, watch a sport gamble on a sport. So there are these different things. I think, in most instances, I'm still very much on the left hand side of that so although I'm geared towards my phone more often than I probably should be it's quite nice to look at that table and think you know what, in some areas I feel quite old school. Although I can't remember the last time I've ever written a handwritten letter that's that is a long time ago my handwriting is just gone off the chart bad because I'm never using it then. Zoe Amar 8:49 Amazing, amazing. Well, I think these articles are well worth reading and we'll give everyone a lot of food for thought about being very dependent on phones but also on the dopamine hit that we've all been dying to get from social media. And also for anyone who is trying to spend less time on their phone I've signed up to a free Guardian course it's just based on a series of newsletters, which is all about getting you to spend less time on your phone. So we'll link to that in the show notes as well. Paul Thomas 9:23 So now for our conversation with Dr. Lucy Ryan. Zoe Amar 9:28 We are super excited to welcome Dr. Lucy Ryan to Starts at the Top. Lucy is managing director of Mindspring International which she has led for the last 20 years. And during that time she has trained consulted with and coached over 10,000 leaders in Global Blue Chip companies across 29 countries. In 2021, Lucy published the best selling lunchtime learning for leaders, synthesising her popular down to earth training approach. She's also a passionate advocate for women's professional development, helping organisations attract, retain and promote their female leaders and gender proof their succession plans. Noticing a trend for female midlife clients leaving their corporate roles. She led a unique five year doctoral research project exploring this phenomenon, filling a long standing data gap. Lucy's 2023 book, Revolting Women why midlife women walk out and what to do about it was an instant Amazon Best Seller, Financial Times Book of the Month and hailed by the Sunday Times as clear, pithy and enraging. Lucy is an accredited Master Practitioner coach, and nominated in 2022, as one of the top 100 global coaches room. She's a much requested speaker on the conference circuit, and a popular webinar and podcast guests. With a master's in positive psychology, Lucy lectures in positive leadership and organisational well being at the University of East London, and she is an honorary research fellow at the University of Liverpool. Dr. Lucy Ryan we're so excited to have you here. Welcome to Starts at the Top. Dr. Lucy Ryan 11:16 Thank you. Thank you, Zoe. Zoe Amar 11:19 And we're even more excited because just before we started recording, I shared with you the story about how I came across this book, I am in my mid 40s. I'm in that crunch point of looking after children transitioning to secondary school and running a business and thinking about care of an elderly parent. And when I opened the Sunday Times that morning, and read about Revolting Women I thought I need to read this book, it will change my life. And I thought about it again last week, when I was icing my daughter's 11th birthday cake, was frantically trying to get ready for a board meeting and the dilemmas you described in this book really, really hit home with me. So thank you so much for joining us today. Dr. Lucy Ryan 12:02 Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me, Zoe, I've been looking forward to this. Zoe Amar 12:06 It's our pleasure. We're very happy to have you here. So for anyone who hasn't come across the book, can you tell us a bit about what it's about? And also what prompted you to write it? Dr. Lucy Ryan 12:19 So what prompted me is, is I've done my PhD in this area. So I've done a PhD looking at how midlife women experience their professional life. And I thought that was the end of it. After five years, you know, you always want to throw your PhD in the bin and never talk about it again. But it wouldn't let me go. And I wrote another book in the meantime, Lunchtime Learning and thought that's it. I'm not, I'm not doing this anymore. But it absolutely wouldn't let me go. And so I ended up writing Revolting Women. And essentially, it is the story or stories of midlife professional women who are exiting the workplace, just at the point where they're about to step up into positions of influence. And it's an extraordinary phenomenon. And I still can't believe that it's not written about everywhere, that there's not complete outrage, because it's quite a global phenomenon. It's not just UK. But the fact is, it's like a silent revolution in that they are just exiting, and everyone's put their head down, ignored it, and hope the problem will go away. So this was my starter for 10 of writing the book to start the conversation about what do we do about the exodus of these women. Zoe Amar 13:51 That's amazing. And can you tell us about the kind of scale of the problem because I remember being really struck when I first read the book, a couple of months ago by these really shocking stats and the size of the challenges. What can you tell us about that? Dr. Lucy Ryan 14:07 Sure. Well, let me start off with just two big facts to give you a sense of the scale of it from the US and UK for every female director that's being promoted two are leaving. And in the UK, for example, we have had a plateauing figure of between 11 and 14%, of female employed, directors, executive directors. Now, that's been a plateau that's been nearly a decade and has been reported on relentlessly year in year out by Cranfield and hasn't moved. And it's been hidden by the fact that we have a lot of non executive directors, female non executive directors at the top five companies. So everyone's gone. Not a problem. We got a lot of middle aged women thanks very much. But the fact is, is they're not employed. And the actual employed female directors are exiting. Hence this this plateauing statistic that is just not shifting. So the scale is, it's big, it's worldwide. And we have no single organisation at all, any sector, where the female directors are greater than the male directors. Zoe Amar 15:36 This is shocking, isn't it? So why aren't more people talking about this? Because they shouldn't be, shouldn't they? Dr. Lucy Ryan 15:43 Well that's why I wrote the book. Why aren't people talking about it? If I was being cynical, which I'm actually not often I don't really like cynicism, to be honest Zoe, the reason we're not talking about is either, because it is just more convenient to leave the status quo as it is. So we've got a lot of men leading our organisations, if they really have to embrace this issue, then something rather major has to shift. So either the desire to keep the status quo is just too big, or the problem has crept up on everyone. Zoe Amar 16:26 And do you think ageism and sexism are at play here? Dr. Lucy Ryan 16:29 I think gendered ageism is a huge problem. And it's one of the things I start with in the book. Why are women exiting? Well, one of the first reasons they're exiting is because of gendered ageism. And that takes many forms, Zoe, it can be blunt, it can be language, you know, that the women I interviewed were called all sorts of things from old bint to fuddy duddy, to old aunt to all sorts of things. So it can be actual blunt language, or it can be much more subtle, in a lot of women found that they were just being sidelined. And that projects they were leading, they were suddenly told that maybe they weren't capable of leading and they were giving it to a man. So they were sidelined. They were moved down, they were moved across, or they were told they're just not capable of stepping up. But a man is with less qualifications. So you've got all sorts of things at play. Plus, we can't ignore the fact that an ageing man is considered far sexier than an ageing woman. So I can I can see Paul raising his eyebrows. So you know, I, I call it the George Clooney effect. You know that there are plenty of positive words to discuss older men, you know, so older men might be called fine wines or silver foxes, or they're considered quite cool as they become older and grey haired. Older grey haired women there is not a single positive word in the English language to describe them. We have plenty of negative ones, hags, crones, spinsters, witches, harridans, frumps, but not a single positive word to describe them. Zoe Amar 18:34 That's so interesting, because obviously I was very aware of this gendered ageism issue, but I haven't really thought about that point about language before. You're right! The female George Clooney is out there right? I mean, we just have to hero them and have words to describe them. Dr. Lucy Ryan 18:53 Yeah. And and we go, wow, you look good getting older. What we say to women is, oh, wow, you don't look your age. So we ask them to be younger. There are all sorts of aspects around gendered ageism that women face. And certainly the women I interviewed expended a lot of energy, money and time trying to look younger. Paul Thomas 19:22 Is it worse in certain industries? So do you think this is across the board? Is it all organisations? Or is it yeah, is it worse in... I mean, there are male dominated industries, most industries will have male domination at the top of them, I guess, silly comment to make. But is it worse over somewhere? Dr. Lucy Ryan 19:40 It's more obvious Paul, in industries like the media, in that branding, looking young, looking fast, looking speedy, is more important in some industries, like media. But I interviewed women across all sectors deliberately, and found no difference. The only sector I couldn't interview women was politics. And I think that's another sector Paul, where it's hard to look older as well. Paul Thomas 20:12 Yeah. And I was gonna say the, you know, I listen to a lot of, watch a lot of movies and watch and listen to a lot of film podcasts. And that's an industry that's constantly sort of criticised for what role is dry up for older women. And isn't that a perfect role for a woman of her age and all these sorts of things. But you're right in even in that industry, it's never it's never massively positive. And the roles for older women are usually sort of powerhouses, are sort of women on the rise, all of that sort of stuff comebacks and that sort of language is used. Dr. Lucy Ryan 20:49 Yeah, yes, is exactly right. And we can name most of the older women on screen. You know, we know our Helen Mirren's, our Judi Dench's, our Maggie Smith's, we couldn't start to name all the men on screen, because there's so many. So they are the exception. Zoe Amar 21:08 That's very true. And it was interesting I was listening to, on another podcast over the weekend which Paul send me and also there's a thing of older women of colour isn't there? So in And Just Like That... series, which sounds like you've watched as well. I remember being absolutely riveted by the cast. And one of the reasons why I suddenly realise you don't often see older women of colour on screen. So in that regard, it was really interesting to witness that. Dr. Lucy Ryan 21:37 Massive. And for every statistic that, you know, I have in the book, as I say in the book, it's worse for women of colour. So everything is heightened for other women. Zoe Amar 21:52 Yeah, I can, I can well believe that. I just saw Paul staring out the window probably contemplating a future as the George Clooney of Digital Strategy. Dr. Lucy Ryan 22:03 George Clooney of podcasting, Paul! Paul Thomas 22:07 No, I'm looking in the mirror and seeing, you know, ageing man that needs a haircut and feels a little bit out of his depth. No, I think it's, I think it's, it's massively interesting. And I think, you know, I've, I don't want to sort of, you know, name names. I've been on this podcast for long enough saying and talking about the organisations that I've used, I used to work for. So I don't, not gonna get sort of name names. But yeah, I worked under a female CEO. And just thinking back about some of the language that was used to describe her in that post, lots of positive language, lots of lots of reaffirming language, but the longer the short of it is that we've talked about it before, haven't we Zoe? The antibodies kicked in and as soon as the the changes that she was making to the organisation didn't stick or didn't work, then it became sort of a well, let's redress the balance. Let's go back to what we know. That was a good experiment that got us to a certain point, but it's not it's not what we need. So yeah, witnessed it firsthand within organisations that I've worked for. Yeah, that's kind of my reflection, as I was gazing out of the window and thinking, Oh, my God, this is not a good position to be in. And as I work with now, smaller organisations, hopefully starting to see a bit of a term within smaller organisations that have some more ability to manoeuvre around these big questions. Dr. Lucy Ryan 23:46 Yeah, I mean, I don't mind where the change comes from, whether it comes from our large organisations or small organisations, but for sure, a lot of the midlife women are leaving larger organisations and setting up smaller organisations, they're not going, they're not retiring. They are the entrepreneurs of the future. I think I'm right in saying that 67% of all new business account setup last year, were by women over 55. Paul Thomas 24:19 We've also interviewed on this podcast, remember Joy from TechPixies and TechPixies was an organisation that was specifically set up to help women who wanted to exit the workplace and take up careers in other areas. So this was specifically around managing digital transformation, social media strategies, that sort of thing. And on her books, she had lawyers, she had doctors, she had women from all sorts of industries who were signing up saying, I don't want to do that anymore. I want something more flexible, something that I can do in my own time. And she had a massive influx of women into that programme. Dr. Lucy Ryan 24:57 Yeah so on the one hand, there's something very positive about this, which is women are leaving, middle aged women are leaving organisations. They're taking their wisdom, their creativity into entrepreneurial companies. But what about the loss to all the companies who are losing them? So on the one hand, we celebrate what the women are doing, and on the other hand, I'm going, why didn't you keep them? Zoe Amar 25:24 Absolutely. And tell us more about the impact of that loss? Because that's something that really struck me when reading your book? Dr. Lucy Ryan 25:32 Well, I think you're absolutely right, in that there is a huge impact. And I think that once the women leave, you lose a huge amount Zoe. I mean, let's talk about the organisations first, you lose a whole wealth of talent, often homegrown talent within the organisation, you lose creativity. Now, it's quite interesting to me that we think that young people have the hold on ambition, creativity, and energy. Now, I would say look at any middle age woman, and I will show you an extremely resilient, wise, creative, motivated woman. So they lose an enormous amount. You know, I know from all the research that middle aged women are, after kind of a zigzag carrer are definitely on the up in terms of motivation, that kind of 55 or so if they want more of it, not less. So not only are we losing all of that, but the other thing we're losing that really matters is organisations are losing their older role models. So young people have no one to look up to. And they're going okay, so I'm not going to get old with this company. Because there aren't really any good positive role models. And there are there isn't any training for me or any pathways for me, or creative pathways for me. So it's an enormous challenge for organisations. For women it's either a positive move, because they go right, I'm off. And they've got all this exciting ideas for companies of their own, but very commonly that comes after transition. And it's what I call the midlife collision, in that one of the biggest reasons that women, midlife women leave organisations, is this collision of circumstances that is utterly painful. So not only is it often the looking after of our older children, which isn't necessarily painful, although there is a growing number of older children with mental health challenges. But there's also the looking after our parents, with sadly high levels of dementia care going on. Plus, you'll often find middle aged women are looking after their a family member, a sibling, a husband. And then they've also got the menopause. And often either financial issues, divorce. So there is this sweet spot this collision that goes on at midlife. And what happens is they often want a temporary break. I heard so many heartbreaking stories of women going I just wanted five weeks to be with my dad when he died. I just wanted some temporary time and I couldn't get it. So I left. And I think what organisations don't get is that commonly all these midlife challenges are temporary. And so the challenge on women, it might be positive afterwards. But there is a huge amount of either anger or pain or hurt as they cope with this midlife collision. And then they get back on their feet and then they're ready to start again. Zoe Amar 29:20 Absolutely, I mean it's just awful isn't it. That the cost to organisations of losing these incredibly talented members of the workforce in terms of their skills, as you say, their energy, the value of them being role models, especially with recruitment being such an expensive thing to do is huge. And then there's also the cost to individuals isn't there? So if someone has a really difficult exit, then that can really affect their confidence. And obviously as you say, hopefully, on the other side of that, that person then discovers their entrepreneurial net, so go on to do wonderful, wonderful things. Dr. Lucy Ryan 30:00 Yeah that's a good, that's a good thing. Zoe Amar 30:01 But it doesn't need to be this painful round, does it? And the onus is very much on organisations to fix and change this. Dr. Lucy Ryan 30:10 I think so. I mean, we can put some of the onus on women to articulate what's going on. But I think that we've spent many years you know, decades blaming women, particularly saying you need more confidence, you need to step up, you need to do this, but actually, it's the organisation that needs to recognise this challenge. But that starts from a strategic intent to want to retain them. Paul Thomas 30:40 And you're talking about fairly short, in some instances where women you've spoken to have asked for five weeks. Are there any organisations that are seriously looking at those midlife sabbaticals? Because, you know, I've worked with organisations that take it very seriously for their young up and coming talent. Oh, you would like to sabbatical? Yeah, here you go. Here's some time off. But surely that should be in place for women going through this as well. Dr. Lucy Ryan 31:07 There are few organisations that are taking it seriously. I mean, a handful, Paul, but there are more that are starting to look at it. And you're, you're absolutely right, that that's what's needed. Which is there's something around a midlife sabbatical. Now, it's not as radical as it sounds either. We've got 100 year lives, we've got 50 year careers. We're used to doing it for maternity leave, we're used to doing it for young people. But because we've come to think of kind of 55 as the glide to retirement, we've stopped thinking creatively around maybe a six month sabbatical to sort all of these different things out in your life, and then get you ready for this next whatever the next career pathway is. Zoe Amar 31:57 This is about reframing, isn't it? Because what I loved about your book, was this sense of midlife being this time when actually it can be the start of a really exciting chapter, so one of the people who always pops into my head with this stuff is Trinny Woodall who I think, made an investment, for her business for a new business of age 57, or something like that. And she's living her best life and this amazing new chapter on this adventure. And more organisations need to see women at this time in their life as as people who can go on to this source of, of kind of growth in this new journey, which can actually deliver a lot of for society, not for them and make a massive difference. Dr. Lucy Ryan 32:42 Absolutely. And that's the revolt. If we talk about, you know why women leave, we've got gendered ageism, we've got the midlife collision. But we've got this much more hopeful side, which is a revolt against the kind of full time foolishness of the system. And that a desire to live a career and live a life on their terms. So they're wanting to redefine what career success looks like. And it's certainly not 24/7 but it is hopeful and interesting, and motivating. Zoe Amar 33:22 It really is and what time is this revolt? And when do I need to be there? And do I need to bring snacks? Paul Thomas 33:32 Do you need to bring snacks. Yes, Dr. Lucy Ryan 33:34 Yeah, it's at 5pm Zoe, I you need to definitely bring gin and snacks. Zoe Amar 33:42 Gin and Snacks, I like that. Well Paul knows I love to bake so I'll bring some cake. And you'll join us as well won't you Paul? Paul Thomas 33:47 I'll bring the gin yeah. And a bit of Whiskey. So, as I said, Zoe said we were sort of sharing various episodes of podcasts you'd been on over the last couple of months. And one of the things that you talked about in that I think, connects to what we've just been discussing and the concept of midlife check ins. And organisations doing that and I guess quite sadly to sort of really bring that to life. What they're going to need to do for most organisations is make that across the board for men and women going through midlife. And I was really interested in that concept because you know, working on my own I could do with a bit of that. So I probably need to sort out my own midlife check in. But how do you see that working within organisations? Dr. Lucy Ryan 34:38 Yeah, it's a really great question. And it's the part, Paul that organisations are kind of grabbing on to, which is, okay, midlife check ins, we can do that. What I mean by it is, when managers have a conversation with members of their team, it's usually about task. How are you doing? What's going on? What have you done well, this year, what's not going well? What are your objectives for next year? What we rarely do, although we started in the pandemic, is we rarely go and how are you? And what actually is going on in your life in a holistic way? Tell me about your kids. Tell me about your parents. Tell me what else you're juggling? What actually is going on? And how can we support you? And if more conversations I mean, women have conversation like that with me as their coach, but they're not having it with their organisation? Because they say, Well, if I tell them what's going on, I'll suddenly be sidelined. So it's about having a healthy holistic check in. But it must have some form of solution attached to it. It's not It can't just be, look, I'm really curious what is going on? And I'm so sorry. Anyway, could you get back to work, please, that there needs to be on the other side's something that goes with it. But if we had those conversations, we'd have far less surprises. And I know organisations been consistently surprised by top executives suddenly resigning, and they go, Well, we had you in the succession plan, and you're going, yeah, but if you'd found out what was going on, that wouldn't be a surprise. Paul Thomas 36:30 And do you think that the leaving is exacerbated or has been exacerbated by the pandemic? Is there, we've talked on this podcast quite often about a general sense of reevaluation, tiredness, people realising you know that they were barking up the wrong tree and had been for a long, long time. Do you think that's changed things at all? Dr. Lucy Ryan 36:53 I think it's changed things in a couple of ways. One is exactly as you say, the reevaluation, there's no doubt about it, there was a sense of a kind of revolt of the life I was leading, how I want it to be. So that's true. On the more difficult side, once women came back into the household, everyone went, Oh, it's really nice to have you home. And it's been far harder for them to leave again, and go back out to the workplace. And unfortunately, what I'm seeing in a lot of workplaces is they want everyone back in full time. So I thought we were going to be able to really manage a hybrid workforce that would suit women more. But I'm seeing a cry for more full time work back in the office. I might be wrong. Zoe Amar 37:45 I think you're right about that. I'm thinking of one friend in particular. And I want to be careful what I say about her because I think she does listen sometimes. A phenomenally talented senior leader who works in the corporate world, who like me is at a stage where she's got kids who are either about transition to secondary or in secondary, where I didn't realise you need to be at home a bit more, because they're coming back from school earlier, Paul's nodding because he's got kids with a similar age to mine. You just need to be around that bit more, don't you? And actually, that's had a bit of a knock on impact on jobs that this person who could go for, who would be an asset to any organisation, and also balancing that with her husband's career who travels a lot. And I think you're right, I think, there's suddenly, this I think of being pulled back into a whirlpool of being at home, and having to deal with a lot of the commitments then balance that alongside of having a full on job is, is a real challenge, isn't it? Dr. Lucy Ryan 38:42 It's a real challenge, and quite again, an unspoken one, in that when our children, I certainly found when my children were younger, there was a lot of quid pro quo, you know, will you take mine, I'll take yours, you do that? And I found that as my children went to secondary school, they didn't really want to see me or speak to me, but they wanted to know I was there. Zoe Amar 39:07 That sums up parenting. it's a beauty. Dr. Lucy Ryan 39:12 And, you know, those challenges become different at any age. Yeah, Paul Thomas 39:17 Yeah and I think things like, you know, checking homeworks being done and all those sorts of things are the challenges that when they walk through the door you have to face. As you've recognised earlier on, I think, a huge uplift in emotional issues as well. So being there for that, especially going through either the transition into senior school or through senior school can be quite quite hard, exam times all those sorts of things. And it just keeps, I keep coming back to the idea that it would be so simple to allow that sabbatical that sort of midlife pause, where you can just say, look, just a few weeks to decide, readjust to get myself together, and then come back with that renewed vigour and energy to really, really go into the next phase of my career with a spring in my step and purpose. Dr. Lucy Ryan 40:09 Agree and I think that when organisations get used to this idea, and it's a when to me, not an if. Of both the 100 year life, the 50 year career, the loss of their older women, then they will start going, we really need to think about this differently. In terms of flexibility, sabbaticals, check-ins, giving women a way back in, I think, is really important too. Zoe Amar 40:40 And that's so interesting, isn't it? Because I think one of the things you talk about in the book is how actually that way back in post baby has been thought about by organisations and there's a lot of transferable learning and obviously, the life situation is different. But if it can be done for younger women coming back after having children, there's surely a way to do it for these incredibly talented midlife women. Dr. Lucy Ryan 41:06 Absolutely. You know, we were not done in organisations, we've we've done it very well for maternity in the UK, we haven't done it very well for paternity. But Scandinavia has been perfect role models for us. There, I will come back to the fact there needs to be a strategic intent to tackle this issue. Once you've got that strategic intent, I believe the solutions are staring us in the face. And not too hard. Zoe Amar 41:37 I think that's a great point. So with that strategic intent and thinking about some of those great progressive examples from Scandinavia, do you think that's what it takes? You need some kind of signalling some sort of policy commitment at that governmental level for things to shift? Do we need that rather than organisations fixing this on on their own? Dr. Lucy Ryan 41:58 I think if you had at the government level, that would be great. But governments change and change their policies and reduce funding, I think it will take it from a cabal of CEOs, which is what's starting to happen in France. So yeah, it is really interesting. And so I think it will come from a group of CEOs going right, we actually need to address this. And we need to think this, think about this differently. And then gradually, I think we'll start to see those wheels turn. Zoe Amar 42:36 So if I'm a leader listening to this podcast thinking, right, I need to read this book, and I need to do things differently. I didn't realise about the scale of the problem, what should I be doing? Dr. Lucy Ryan 42:47 So apart from obviously reading the book, Zoe, and taking it, taking it back to the organisation, what I would do is take the issues, and I've put kind of 10 provocations for change at the back of the book. So I've laid out some steps that an organisation can take. So I think any leader needs to take it to HR needs to take it to their diversity and inclusion people and needs to start looking at their own statistics of their own team, their own organisation, and thinking about what are we like, where are we losing women? What are our personal statistics, and then bringing it up at the senior leadership team meetings, and seeing what the appetite is for change? And slowly but surely building it? Zoe Amar 43:40 Yeah. And I thoroughly recommend those 10 provocations. I think that there's so much good practical advice in there for leaders who know that this is important, but need those those tips and those steps that they can follow in order to take this forward. So yeah, I absolutely love this. I think that's a really great, it's like a toolkit almost. Dr. Lucy Ryan 44:02 Yeah, hopefully. I mean, it's got to start somewhere and I'd start with looking at your own statistics of an organisation. Zoe Amar 44:10 And before we started recording today, you talked about how you had this amazing supportive response from lots of women and I can see all over social which is great. And we talked about the response from organisations being a bit different, can you tell us about that? Dr. Lucy Ryan 44:26 Sure. So as you rightly say, women have, middle aged women have been beating a path to my door, saying, Thank you for recognising us. Thank you for speaking about this. This is the first time I've seen in my life, my experiences in print. Organisations have been slower to do that. Slower to the point of silence. And that's changing, you know, it's only been three months. So that is slowly starting to change. I think naively, I thought, Zoe that you know, my phone would ring off the hook with CEOs going right help us help us do this. And that's not the case. So systemic changes will happen slowly. And I am slightly less naive now three months on. And I can see that I've just got to tackle this slightly differently, and start at the top with CEOs. And help them see that both age is an issue as well as their gender proofing their succession plans. Zoe Amar 45:38 I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I think it will take time for the wheel to turn inevitably, just in any area of change around EDI doesn't it? And I feel that this whole issue around age is one of those things that has been perhaps quite overlooked in some EDI programmes, as well. So it's great that you're starting this conversation. And if I just take one horrible news story, you know, to create that burning platform, you know, something awful happens in some organisation, and then suddenly CEO start to mobilise on mass, we can't have this happen here. So maybe that's what it will take, unfortunately. I mean, I would love it if they were all beating their path to your door now, I mean, who knows? It might happen tomorrow. But I think this change is coming. Just the fact that you've got this kind of momentum and energy around the launch of the book says to me that this is your thing. Dr. Lucy Ryan 46:40 Yeah, I think so too. So you know, thank you for helping me on this journey. No Zoe Amar 46:46 No problem. And Paul, you had a question about midlife transition, didn't you? Well, Paul Thomas 46:51 and I was just thinking of one of the podcasts I shared with Zoe, you talked about, they asked you what's next? And you said a long rest, which is fine. A good answer to that question. Dr. Lucy Ryan 47:06 I was obviously feeling very tired that day. Paul Thomas 47:10 But the second thing you said, and I think this is I think this we should have we should have maybe talked about this earlier on. But I think it connects with, obviously, I'm a man, I'm gonna bring a sort of a male perspective to this, this podcast quite often and a football perspective quite often. You said that you you'd be interested in in looking and researching this from a male perspective. And I, the more I started thinking about that question before Zoe asked me to ask it. Again, I wondered whether that's a trigger point for the conversation about women, is if you were to do that piece of research about men, whether that would then trigger the conversation about women, and I hate to sort of put it in that that sort of perspective. But I think in taking the conversation to men who in midlife, I mean, it's celebrated, right? You know, we sort of go, we're having a bit of a midlife crisis, you just bought a sports car, you just left your wife for another woman, all this sort of stuff that happens and we celebrate it and go, isn't that funny? But actually the reverse when you flip it over to the female side, it's completely different. I just wonder whether a trigger point for men, as Zoe said, men are going to need to step up and recognise this is that they recognise it in themselves, and then say, and yes, what about the women and I, I just wonder whether that would, is going to be a trigger point for this to come to life for you. Dr. Lucy Ryan 48:43 I think it's so interesting, Paul, and I suppose the easy answer is I don't know. I think for so long you know, certainly since the 1950s, where the term midlife crisis came from. We have got used to joking about men's midlife. I actually think men do know that often they're struggling in midlife but I think a) they don't say it and b) they frame it in terms of this haha crisis buy a Ferrari type language. Whereas I think women are less able to fret or don't want to, to joke it off. So I think certainly CEO's are going to be more interested to act when the conversation is broader. So when the conversation is about age and age diversity, rather than just about women. Paul Thomas 49:37 Yeah, I think that's that, that again, you know Zoe's made a great point there. I'm working with an organisation at the moment who are sort of looking at their EDI strategy and age is not in there. And straightaway, tomorrow morning, the recommendation is going to be right, we need to put that in there. And it needs to be front and centre because I think it's so important. And Zoe, and I benefit from this, of course, because what we do in both of our organisations is surround ourselves with brilliant people who can work with us to do brilliant things for our clients. And in my case, those 3 brilliant people I work with are all women who have all left industry, and are all looking for something different. So from my perspective, it's, it's a sort of a winning, you leave that world you come into mine, and that's absolutely fine. But you're right, it's what it leaves behind. And that's a real real concern. Absolutely. Dr. Lucy Ryan 50:30 Absolutely. So you know, on the one hand, isn't it brilliant. And that's what I'm saying is, we can look at all these amazing, entrepreneurial, middle aged women, creative, wise, resilient, and on the other hand, I'm going, but what a loss to an organisation. And with just a little bit of thought and intent, they could retain them. Zoe Amar 50:53 Absolutely. Paul Thomas 50:53 Very thought provoking stuff. Zoe Amar 50:55 Very thought provoking. And I think there's something here about really proudly celebrating the value that women offer in the workplace, and also the legacy the amazing legacies that they leave behind them as well. And that's what I really loved about your book, the way it brings that really front and centre, and really celebrates that. And that's what we need more of isn't it. Dr. Lucy Ryan 51:21 We definitely need more of that I went to a beautiful award ceremony of advantages of age, with all these extraordinary women aged 70 and 80. In flamboyant gear, and I thought, yeah, that's what we need more. Zoe Amar 51:35 Absolutely. And it was so interesting to have seen your post about that, because I'm half Chinese. And in Chinese culture, age is revered, it's celebrated, is seen as a source of wisdom. And you know if an older person, like, for example, my mother tells anyone what to do, you need to do it because it is seen as coming from a source of great value and strength. So it's very different to perhaps the Western society, in many ways. Dr. Lucy Ryan 52:04 It's a Western issue isn't it. Yeah, you're right. Zoe Amar 52:07 What an amazing book. Thank you so much. Dr. Lucy Ryan 52:09 Oh, my total pleasure. Thank you for having me, Zoe. And Paul. Zoe Amar 52:13 Oh it's our pleasure. We will put details of the book in the show notes. Where else can people find you? Dr. Lucy Ryan 52:19 They can mainly find me on LinkedIn under Dr. Lucy Ryan, they can find me on Instagram. And they can also check out my websites, which is mindspring or lucyryan.co.uk. Zoe Amar 52:32 Wonderful. We'll put those in the show notes. And what are you up to next? Dr. Lucy Ryan 52:37 Well, clearly, it's not a long rest. So obviously, I had one weekend, and that was it. So there's some business as usual training and coaching. But I've also joined forces with Noon, which is a brilliant organisation run by Eleanor Mills. And I'm doing some consulting work with them. And so we do a collaborative, brilliant push on queen agers and their value to organisations. So I'm excited about that too. So there's lots going on now. Zoe Amar 53:08 Amazing. Well, we can't wait to see what you do next. And keep in touch and we would love to have you back again in the future when no doubt you will have achieved even more amazing things. Dr. Lucy Ryan 53:18 Thank you so much Zoe, thank you Paul. Zoe Amar 53:22 Thank you to Lucy for joining us on the podcast a lot to think about in that conversation and a wonderful way to close out these first four episodes. As Paul Thomas 53:30 As always, we really do appreciate you've listened all the way through to the end of this episode. So thank you. You can support the podcast by leaving us a five star review. Wherever you listen to us. It really does help us to reach more people. So if you've enjoyed what you've heard, please do pass it on. Share us with a friend. Zoe Amar 53:47 Thank you so much for listening today. And we'll see you in a couple of weeks with a brand new episode of Starts at the Top. See Paul Thomas 53:53 See you then and bye for now. Transcribed by https://otter.ai